Heavy copper fouling

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mmcintyre1220

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Purchased a 1943 no4 mk1 Long Branch some time ago. Never really shot well and I didn't have the time to play with it much. Recently picked up a bore scope and now I know why......this is absolutely caked with copper fouling. I have been able to remove all but this small maybe 1 inch section. It's heavy enough that you can feel it when trying to get a brush or patch through it.

So far I have spent about 3 hours trying to get this out without much luck. I have used barnes cr10, sweets 7.62, butches bore shine, kroil and jb bore paste. Maybe it's getting better but it's still a long ways away from being out. Does anyone have any other recommendations? I am half tempted to fill the bore with cr10 and let it sit for a few hours.
 

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BlackPowderBurner said:
Sounds like you're using all the right tools. Give it some more time, some bores are tougher to clean than others. Cleaning the barrel while it's hot from being fired can help. If you get desperate, look into bore electrolysis. I would take a guess that you're dealing with cupronickel fouling not just copper.
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I'm going to grab some household 7% ammonia, plug the bore and let it sit for some time. If that does not start showing better results, I will use that ammonia to make an electrolyte solution and try your suggestion with electrolysis. It could be cupronickel (had to look up what that is) but this is absolutely reacting to the copper solvents I have used so far..... Just painstakingly slow.
 
Claven2 said:
Any ammonia based cleaner, let sit.

The foaming bore cleaners work well in this dept.

Essentially you need to chemically dissolve it.
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Yeah I don't have any foaming cleaners on hand. Got some silicone plugs on the way. I'm going to plug the bore and let it soak in 7% household ammonia. Starting for short durations and working my way up to ensure it does not damage anything.
 
Wipe out foam. Spray the bore & lay it down horizontally. [You don't need much; hold the nozzle down, & count 2 Mississippi, otherwise you, re just wasting the stuff to clean your floor.] Come back in 3-4 hours & fill the bore with it again. The goop coming out should be dark blue. Continue spraying 1st thing in the morning before coffee & last thing before bed. It may take up to a week. The nice thing about this, other than the fact you don't have to patch or brush, at least initially, is that because fouling is laid down in layers [ie. jacket, powder, jacket, powder, &c.] once you dissolve the jacket fouling, it also loosens the powder fouling.
I've also found that if you take the old girl out shooting, then start the cleaning process while the barrel is still warm, for some reason, the bore is easier to clean.
I also like KG-12, although it would be nice to see colour, in order to prove it works. Nevertheless, it does [see the etching on the bullet]

100_4045.JPG
 
m1220, all of your products should work well in that bore.

I have a feeling not all of that jacket fouling is copper, and it may be mixed with cupro-nickel from surplus ammunition.

Cupro nickel can be a real chore to clean out of bores completely.

I would not leave Barne's Cr10, Sweet's 7.62, or any other ammonia based cleaner in a bore for more than an hour or so.

If you don't have one, maybe you know someone with an electronic bore cleaner, which is one of the best methods for cleaning such fouling.

One trick you may want to try is to immerse your barrel in boiling water until it's heated all the way through, then use the ammonia based cleaners or Wipe Out.

I was shown this trick by an old REME by the name of Walter Rogers, back in the mid seventies.

It helps to break the friction weld between the different types of fouling in a constricted bore.

Some people believe it's all jacket fouling they're trying to clean out.

In reality, every time you shoot a bullet down the bore, after the first shot, you are laying down a coating of carbon from the propellants in the powder and primer, then coating it with jacket fouling. Both need to be removed.

I use a 50/50 mixture of Wipe Out and First Choice bore cleaners to attack both types of fouling at the same time.

Wipe Out makes a product that is exclusively for Black Powder fouling, but if it's mixed with jacket fouling remover, the mix won't work well on either.

I've used the black powder fouling remover between applications of Wipe Out jacket fouling remover with good success.

The carbon fouling can be a real problem if the fouling is as bad as that shown in your pics.

I don't know if it's still available, but there used to be a product issued to armorers called Motty's Bore Paste. It was designed to remove cupro nickel fouling.

It's more aggressive than Ioso, or JB's bore paste, but not as aggressive as valve grinding compound.

Sweets has more ammonia in it than any off the shelf cleaner from the grocery or hardware store. Don't waste your money.
 
I scrub copper fouled bores with a nylon bore brush dipped in ammonia based solvent. I don't know, but maybe it helps get through the layers of fouling and flake things off besides just dissolving them. That bore looks nasty.

I've never tried heat with ammonia solvent, but theoretically it should speed up the chemical reaction. Rather than immersing the barrel in hot water, I'd just try pouring a kettle of boiling water through the bore from the chamber end using a funnel, over a bucket - same as cleaning for corrosive ammo. That way the stock doesn't need to be removed. A barrel heated this way dries out fast because it draws air like a chimney. Don't try to look down the bore if its warm and has ammonia solvent in it!!
 
bearhunter said:
m1220, all of your products should work well in that bore.

I have a feeling not all of that jacket fouling is copper, and it may be mixed with cupro-nickel from surplus ammunition.

Cupro nickel can be a real chore to clean out of bores completely.

I would not leave Barne's Cr10, Sweet's 7.62, or any other ammonia based cleaner in a bore for more than an hour or so.

If you don't have one, maybe you know someone with an electronic bore cleaner, which is one of the best methods for cleaning such fouling.

One trick you may want to try is to immerse your barrel in boiling water until it's heated all the way through, then use the ammonia based cleaners or Wipe Out.

I was shown this trick by an old REME by the name of Walter Rogers, back in the mid seventies.

It helps to break the friction weld between the different types of fouling in a constricted bore.

Some people believe it's all jacket fouling they're trying to clean out.

In reality, every time you shoot a bullet down the bore, after the first shot, you are laying down a coating of carbon from the propellants in the powder and primer, then coating it with jacket fouling. Both need to be removed.

I use a 50/50 mixture of Wipe Out and First Choice bore cleaners to attack both types of fouling at the same time.

Wipe Out makes a product that is exclusively for Black Powder fouling, but if it's mixed with jacket fouling remover, the mix won't work well on either.

I've used the black powder fouling remover between applications of Wipe Out jacket fouling remover with good success.

The carbon fouling can be a real problem if the fouling is as bad as that shown in your pics.

I don't know if it's still available, but there used to be a product issued to armorers called Motty's Bore Paste. It was designed to remove cupro nickel fouling.

It's more aggressive than Ioso, or JB's bore paste, but not as aggressive as valve grinding compound.

Sweets has more ammonia in it than any off the shelf cleaner from the grocery or hardware store. Don't waste your money.
Click to expand...


Oh the products are working, it's just incredibly slow. Every single time the patches are coming out dripping blue sludge. The whole barrel was full of copper but it's all gone now. Down to a single one inch section that's just plugged.

I have been doing carbon removal, followed by jb bore past, followed by copper removal. My theory is, remove the carbon, rough up the copper a bit and then attack the copper. Seems to be working..... Just painstakingly slow. I heard that motty's was the best you could get but it's no longer available.

The ammonia content of cr10 and sweets are both in the 5-6%. I just picked up a liter of 7% ammonia for $4.99. This makes it significantly cheaper to fill the bore with. I am going to let it sit for 30 minutes, drain scrub and inspect. I won't let it sit more than an hour or so, with a solid flush in between. I will take your advice and get it nice and warm before trying this to see if it has any effect.

If this does not get me where I want to be, I will be putting together and electrolysis set up and attacking it that way.
 
Quiet said:
I scrub copper fouled bores with a nylon bore brush dipped in ammonia based solvent. I don't know, but maybe it helps get through the layers of fouling and flake things off besides just dissolving them. That bore looks nasty.

I've never tried heat with ammonia solvent, but theoretically it should speed up the chemical reaction. Rather than immersing the barrel in hot water, I'd just try pouring a kettle of boiling water through the bore from the chamber end using a funnel, over a bucket - same as cleaning for corrosive ammo. That way the stock doesn't need to be removed. A barrel heated this way dries out fast because it draws air like a chimney. Don't try to look down the bore if its warm and has ammonia solvent in it!!
Click to expand...

Yes the application process for both cr10 and sweets has you scrubbing with a nylon brush. Not sure how effective this is as imo, nylon is useless for any form of moderate to heavy fouling. I prefer bronze but not with ammonia.
 
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