Help..any ideas?
- Thread starter Sask Hunter
- Start date
???
Maybe I am missing something...
I have experience with Varget powder/match primers/Hornady bullets, they are the components I am using...and I am playing with seating depth...the components come out of the Hodgden Manual.
2.905 is 20 thou off the lans...this is just a starting point...
What happens if I seat my bullets past the MOL recommended in all the manuals?
Manuals say no longer than 2.800 and I am looking at seating 2.905 to start...does that mean I can run more powder...the manuals I have max at 43.5 grns of Varget.
It seems to me that you're doing this backwards. Most handloaders taylor a load for their rifle. You're trying to taylor your rifle to a pre-determined load. This probably won't end the way you want it to.
Maybe I am missing something...
I have experience with Varget powder/match primers/Hornady bullets, they are the components I am using...and I am playing with seating depth...the components come out of the Hodgden Manual.
2.905 is 20 thou off the lans...this is just a starting point...
What happens if I seat my bullets past the MOL recommended in all the manuals?
Manuals say no longer than 2.800 and I am looking at seating 2.905 to start...does that mean I can run more powder...the manuals I have max at 43.5 grns of Varget.
No - Increasing the COL will have little beneficial effect on max powder charge, more likely the opposite if you get too close to the lands. Regardless, most rifles dont show their best accuracy at max load.
What Blargon is saying is that by restricting yourself to one bullet and powder, you have very little room to move. Without getting technical, you dont have much room to move as far as barrel residence time. If the bullet exits the barrel at the wrong time relative to the barrel motion, you're going to have poor groups. Changing the bullet weight is the most dramatic way of changing barrel residence time, powder is next.
What Blargon is saying is that by restricting yourself to one bullet and powder, you have very little room to move. Without getting technical, you dont have much room to move as far as barrel residence time. If the bullet exits the barrel at the wrong time relative to the barrel motion, you're going to have poor groups. Changing the bullet weight is the most dramatic way of changing barrel residence time, powder is next.
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Yep. Far better to try different powders and bullets than trying to rebuild your rifle. You may go to a different powder and it'll tighten your groups right up, even with the same bullet.
As a start, I'd try IMR 4895 or 4350.
Actually you may have to reduce the powder charge if you increase the COL significantly.Seating to the lands can significantly increase chamber pressure.
http://www.shootingsoftware.com/pressure.htm
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This morning...
Thank for all your advice and help, I really appreciate it.
This mornings pics of the best load 3 shot group at 100 yds...COAL: 2.905, 43 grains Varget, 139 gn Hornady IB, Fed Match Primer and Remington Brass. Temp 10 celcius...needless to say I am very happy and confident in my findings.
I also changed my clean routine I cleaned the barrel after every 3 shot group I ranged from 42, 42.5, 43 and 43.5 grn max...to give each test load the same parameters...
I know Hornady IB's are a hunting bullet and not a bench bullet and they are cheap compared others out there...but they have never failed me on performance on game...
You guys helped with your suggestions and I am going to try Bergers in the 140's when they are released. The pics are for you to enjoy. I am going to play with seating now in smaller increments...and the trigger is still Lawyer proof...
Thank for all your advice and help, I really appreciate it.
This mornings pics of the best load 3 shot group at 100 yds...COAL: 2.905, 43 grains Varget, 139 gn Hornady IB, Fed Match Primer and Remington Brass. Temp 10 celcius...needless to say I am very happy and confident in my findings.
I also changed my clean routine I cleaned the barrel after every 3 shot group I ranged from 42, 42.5, 43 and 43.5 grn max...to give each test load the same parameters...
I know Hornady IB's are a hunting bullet and not a bench bullet and they are cheap compared others out there...but they have never failed me on performance on game...
You guys helped with your suggestions and I am going to try Bergers in the 140's when they are released. The pics are for you to enjoy. I am going to play with seating now in smaller increments...and the trigger is still Lawyer proof...
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Maybe you should see if your barrel bedding is stressing your barrel - this is very common, I'd have that looked at by someone knowledgeable before I gave up or wasted thousands of rounds on cosistently bad results.
Good luck
Grouch
Good luck
Grouch
Well - FWIW - I find the plain ole Hornady Interlocks to be a very accurate hunting bullet, I pretty well use them exclusively in a number of calibers. Some of the premium hunting bullets I've tried have been relatively inaccurate, I suspect this is due to their complex construction limiting dimensionality.
When I work up a (hunting) load, I take two possibly three bullet weights, load them up at min load with powders known to perform, at have at it. It usually takes one trial to find the "sweet" weight. If I'm ambitious, I may play around a bit more with powders or charge weights. All loads are 30 thou off the lands of my tightest chamber, I seen no reason to get closer, and I like the margin of safety.
I have to agree with Blargon - try a new powder, H4350 has consistently worked well for me in the 7 mm calibre.
When I work up a (hunting) load, I take two possibly three bullet weights, load them up at min load with powders known to perform, at have at it. It usually takes one trial to find the "sweet" weight. If I'm ambitious, I may play around a bit more with powders or charge weights. All loads are 30 thou off the lands of my tightest chamber, I seen no reason to get closer, and I like the margin of safety.
I have to agree with Blargon - try a new powder, H4350 has consistently worked well for me in the 7 mm calibre.
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I'd shoot alot more than 3 shots between cleaning. Most guns shoot better with a fouled bore.
I watch for copper build-up and usually only clean after about 50rds, then foul the bore with three cheepy shots and keep on shootin'.
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R the pics working? I think the 3 shot group from this morning is fairly impressive given the issues and concerns I was having earlier about this gun...
I was using the Hornady Interbond bullet ...not the Interlock.
While testing my loads I cleaned between every 3 shot group to give them equal and similar barrels...I thought that would give each test load the exact same test barrel...
Besides this barrel gets super powder fouled...its insane how much powder fouling shows in this barrel...
LOOK AT THE GROUP PICS and please read the post with them...
I was using the Hornady Interbond bullet ...not the Interlock.
While testing my loads I cleaned between every 3 shot group to give them equal and similar barrels...I thought that would give each test load the exact same test barrel...
Besides this barrel gets super powder fouled...its insane how much powder fouling shows in this barrel...
LOOK AT THE GROUP PICS and please read the post with them...
Well - Those are decent groups - not sure I'd work too much more on load development. Bear in mind that shooting a 1 in group requires a certain amount of shooting skill. When I take the same rifle, same load to the range a few times and I find the group size varying, I find its the operator thats causing the issue, not the hardware. (Note to self - stay away from caffeine before hitting the range.)
Good advice, experiment with different bullets and powders. But there are some rifles that will not shoot better than 1.5 - 2 inches. The best advice i have ever heard is:
There's 3 kinds of "fixits";
1. things that can and should get fixed
2. things that don't need to be fixed
3. things that can't be fixed
It takes a smart man to recognise the difference between those 3 "fixits", which relates to nearly everything in this life, not just rifles.
Here is a quote from the first posting in this thread, the one that started it all.
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My new rifle...completely stock(no other work) T/C Pro Hunter 7mm-08, Elite 3200 4x12x40 ao. Yes the trigger is heavy and the hammer is heavy.
The problem...can't find a load that shoots less than 2.25 inches at 100 yds. Most shoot > 2.25".
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2.25 inch groups at 100 yards is not bad, with a rifle with a heavy trigger.
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My new rifle...completely stock(no other work) T/C Pro Hunter 7mm-08, Elite 3200 4x12x40 ao. Yes the trigger is heavy and the hammer is heavy.
The problem...can't find a load that shoots less than 2.25 inches at 100 yds. Most shoot > 2.25".
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2.25 inch groups at 100 yards is not bad, with a rifle with a heavy trigger.
- Location
- Lloydminster SK
If you can get a hold of a bore scope, give your rifleing a good inspection. You may have a factory flawed barrel, or you are missing some fouling in your cleaning routine. Either one may cause these groups.
UPDATE Ran my load (the group in the pics above) through the chrony today. 3 shot group 2971, 2975, 2975 ft/s with 43 grains of Varget and 139 gr Hornady INTERBOND.
Next tests involve COAL...these were 43 grains of Varget, 139 IB, at 2.905 COAL. The max in my gun 2.925. The next test groups 2.910, 2.915 & 2.920 as I don't have to worry about fitting a magazine. Trigger is still 6.5 lbs...
I think the groups should get tighter. Then 0.5 grains of powder until pressure signs...maybe the groups tighten up even more, maybe not...
Anyone care to guess what the results are going to be? better groups?
Cheers
Sask Hunter
Next tests involve COAL...these were 43 grains of Varget, 139 IB, at 2.905 COAL. The max in my gun 2.925. The next test groups 2.910, 2.915 & 2.920 as I don't have to worry about fitting a magazine. Trigger is still 6.5 lbs...
I think the groups should get tighter. Then 0.5 grains of powder until pressure signs...maybe the groups tighten up even more, maybe not...
Anyone care to guess what the results are going to be? better groups?
Cheers
Sask Hunter
Blargon...the set weighs in at:
T/C Pro hunter 7mm-08 Rem 28" barrel = 6.5 lbs
Bushnell Elite 3200 4 x 12 x 40 AO = 1.0 lbs
Scope base & Burris Windage Adj Rings = .5 lbs
total weight roughly = 8.0 lbs
I will stand it on the scale to compare...3.5 kilograms x 2.2 = 7.70 lbs
This rifle is: very nice to shoulder, very easy to carry, very easy to handle/point and a nightmare for anything it gets pointed at namely: Antelope/Whitetail/Mule deer/Cow/Calf Moose/Elk.
If you can't tell I am stoked, my 1st ever Moose hunt starts the 29th of Sept and my rifle is smokin, my Omega ML is smokin and my PSE Xforce Bow is bustin nocs...I get to carry all three weapons...
My choice will be the Omega .50 cal ML because if I run into a nice Whitetail I can shoot it at the same time (but only with the muzzle loader)...250 grain Barnes Spitfire and 100 grains Triple 7 powder = 1900 fps Means serious sickness for anything within 200 yds...
Yeehaw
Sask Hunter
