Help choosing a black rifle

Still alive said:
You can't be married...or have dependents, right?
That is a gorgeous ACR. How does it compare in handling, build quality, weight ( with the 18.6" barrel), trigger pull with an XCR?
So it shoots about 1.5 MOA?
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That's my old ACR I believe.
Everything is better than an xcr.
It was in the .7 to .8 moa range with handloads and five round groups.
Heavier than an ar, but as close as you can get for accuracy to an ar in a nonrestricted package.

Sl8 is a laying down shooting gophers or targets type rifle, it sucks in unsupported positions.
I'd buy another t97 before I'd buy another xcr...
My wife really liked the tavor as the weight was very well distributed, making it feel lighter than it was. She ( and I ) didn't like the goofy safety position on the t97.
You can't beat a Daniel defence ar for weight and performance vs cost, if the restricted status doesn't bother you.
 
Still alive said:
You can't be married...or have dependents, right?
That is a gorgeous ACR. How does it compare in handling, build quality, weight ( with the 18.6" barrel), trigger pull with an XCR?
So it shoots about 1.5 MOA?
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Absolutely nobody to look after. I made the desicion I would collect the cheap stuff first! :p

Handling is similar to my keymod XCR-L. Just a lot more mass right in gas system area it feels like. I am thinking about seeing if a US scalper wants to send a lighter ACR handgaurd up here. Maybe that will help it. The ACR is noticeably chunkier, but just owns it. The mag release and bolt catch both cheaper on the ACR (polymer), coming from the XCR (Metal). It also has a noticeable differance in the feel of the bolt release which is a much larger "shelf" to activate on the ACR.

Weight comparison really isn't fair as my XCR-L sport the pencil barrel and my ACR sport a normal profile barrel.

The Trigger in my ACR is some unknown 2 stage, its okay, but I hear Geissele calling my name at some point.

XCR-L has an excellently refined trigger I would not replace if I had the option. There is a reason no one has made triggers for it yet to my knowledge.
 
ntm said:
That's my old ACR I believe.
Everything is better than an xcr.
It was in the .7 to .8 moa range with handloads and five round groups.
Heavier than an ar, but as close as you can get for accuracy to an ar in a nonrestricted package.

Sl8 is a laying down shooting gophers or targets type rifle, it sucks in unsupported positions.
I'd buy another t97 before I'd buy another xcr...
My wife really liked the tavor as the weight was very well distributed, making it feel lighter than it was. She ( and I ) didn't like the goofy safety position on the t97.
You can't beat a Daniel defence ar for weight and performance vs cost, if the restricted status doesn't bother you.
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Your old ACR have a shaved notch in the handgaurd? Safety shaved on the right side too?
 
Wolverine94 said:
What I'm looking for is something reliable (aren't we all?), reasonable accuracy at 100-300 yards, the ability to mount optics and hopefully something not too expensive to buy extra parts, accessories and magazines for.

Also can anybody give me a general sense of the size and weight constraints of each rifle? ]

I don't plan on hunting with the rifle just a lot of target practice. As for NR vs Restricted I would prefer NR but its not a deal-breaker for me as I eventually plan on adding a handgun to the system.
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Are you planning on competitions with this rifle or just personal practice for competence/fun?

Regarding the highlighted sections in your quote, I believe a compact AR (like a 16" DDM4-V11 or perhaps a 10" DD-Mk18) would serve you well especially when the costs are factored in compared to a HK SL8, Tavor or an ACR as sweet as Onetwentyish's.
An AR should have a significant weight advantage on either of these fine rifles (meaning about a pound lighter which is significant).

Remember good optics don't come cheap, so factor in a good chunk of change for nice glass...

Your overall budget may be a factor (that's if you have one) as these rifles listed above (HKSL8, Tavor & ACR) are all close to $3,000 or more with tax before an optic is added.
Where as a very good quality AR will be under $2,000 leaving some extra cash for an optic and accessories.

Also since AR's are so popular parts/accessories/magazines are plentiful and they are arguably the most reliable/accurate and capable semi.-auto. Black rifle available today (they've had about 60 yrs. of R&D go into them and are in huge use just south of us).

While all these rifles are of high quality you will sacrifice accuracy with the Bullpup Tavor compared to the DD, ACR or HK-SL8; meaning it will be the only rifle of the bunch that is 2+ MOA, the rest should be capable of MOA or better with the right ammo./shooter/conditions...
Saying that a Tavor should be plenty accurate for banging 10" to 12" gongs all day at 300m and is easy to hold steady for non-supported shots due to it's design (rifles mass is closer to your body).

My recommendation if possible would be to at least handle/shoulder each rifle before deciding (especially the Tavor) and fire them too, if available.

Cheers D
 
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Thanks ntm and onetwentyish for the review.
I've owned the heavy barrel pre-keymod XCR-L. I have a Tavor and a VLTOR 10.5" AR.
The Tavor and AR are my never sell guns. I still need to pull the trigger ( literally) on getting the Super Sabra and trigger bow for the Tavor but the cost is holding me back a bit.
So in summary from both of you...the only real difference between the ACR and XCR is the ACR is a potential sub MOA rifle and the XCR has more metal parts and a way better trigger.

Onetwentyish, IF you could only own one, would you get the ACR or XCR? This should be an easy question since you have both!:d

ntm, I may buy a keymod XCR in the future again as they are so much lighter than my old one but I would never buy a T97. Listen to your wife on this one!
 
Zeroed-In said:
Are you planning on competitions with this rifle or just personal practice for competence/fun?

Regarding the highlighted sections in your quote, I believe a compact AR (like a 16" DDM4-V11 or perhaps a 10" DD-Mk18) would serve you well especially when the costs are factored in compared to a HK SL8, Tavor or an ACR as sweet as Onetwentyish's.
An AR should have a significant weight advantage on either of these fine rifles (meaning about a pound lighter which is significant).


Remember good optics don't come cheap, so factor in a good chunk of change for nice glass...

Your overall budget may be a factor (that's if you have one) as these rifles listed above (HKSL8, Tavor & ACR) are all close to $3,000 or more with tax before an optic is added.
Where as a very good quality AR will be under $2,000 leaving some extra cash for an optic and accessories.

Also since AR's are so popular parts/accessories/magazines are plentiful and they are arguably the most reliable/accurate and capable semi.-auto. Black rifle available today (they've had about 60 yrs. of R&D go into them and are in huge use just south of us).

While all these rifles are of high quality you will sacrifice accuracy with the Bullpup Tavor compared to the DD, ACR or HK-SL8; meaning it will be the only rifle of the bunch that is 2+ MOA, the rest should be capable of MOA or better with the right ammo./shooter/conditions...
Saying that a Tavor should be plenty accurate for banging 10" to 12" gongs all day at 300m and is easy to hold steady for non-supported shots due to it's design (rifles mass is closer to your body).

My recommendation if possible would be to at least handle/shoulder each rifle before deciding (especially the Tavor) and fire them too, if available.

Cheers D
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No I don't plan on using it for competition. I just plan on using it for fun and a SHTF scenario (not that I'm counting on the second one to ever happen).
 
Wolverine94 said:
No I don't plan on using it for competition. I just plan on using it for fun and a SHTF scenario (not that I'm counting on the second one to ever happen).
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If the SHTF can we then carry our restricted AR's etc. as if they were NR?

Seriously, like most of us it will come down to NR or Restricted, because if AR's were NR these expensive NR Black rifles wouldn't be so popular unless your the type to want something different (you just have to look south of our border to realize this).

So for a NR traditional rifle ACR or the Tavor for a bull-pup rifle?

Cheers D
 
Zeroed-In said:
If the SHTF can we then carry our restricted AR's etc. as if they were NR?

Seriously, like most of us it will come down to NR or Restricted, because if AR's were NR these expensive NR Black rifles wouldn't be so popular unless your the type to want something different (you just have to look south of our border to realize this).

So for a NR traditional rifle ACR or the Tavor for a bull-pup rifle?

Cheers D
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If SHTF the powers at be will probably take everybody's guns "to keep everyone safe."
The only thing holding me back from an ACR or a Tavor is the price. I looked online for ranges in my area (Winnipeg MB) and they are either full, or the range itself is only 25 yards so getting an AR to save money, but not being able to use it kind of defeats the purpose. Looks like I might be opting for the Tavor at this point.
 
I built my non restricted ACR for under $3000 (was actually closer to $2500). It's easy to do if you buy a used restricted ACR for around $2000 and then have a barrel made for you. Ian at Herron Arms does a great job but there are other avenues you can take to get to the same place for less money. Having it verified and made non restricted is an easy process as well so don't let that scare you.
My custom made non restricted stainless 300 Blackout conversion barrel cost me just under $500 and a little of my time to get it set up. It's now functioning 100% reliably and is shooting 0.8-0.9 moa most of the time with my handloads if I do my part. Even on an off day I'm still doing 1.5moa or better.

I would save up until you can afford what you really want, you'll be further ahead in the end. If you buy a cheaper rifle just to have something now you'll just end up selling it for a loss later because you won't be happy for long.
If restricted status isn't an issue then an AR is the best rifle you can get. I have 4 of them (9mm, 223, 300BLK, 7.62x51) and if it wasn't for the restricted status I wouldn't own any other rifles other than a precision bolt gun. The AR beats all the other options in almost every respect, some of the others like the XCR or ACR have slightly better ergo's but it's not enough to justify triple the price other than to have the non restricted status. The Tavor is well built but you need to spend a lot of time with it before you will be proficient operating it if you are used to a traditional style rifle.
 
If you believe the guy in this video, don't buy an AR15. Build one.

This is an American video, so take it with a (fairly large) grain of salt.

I have never built one myself (and I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night), but from what I have seen on youtube, and from talking to friends, the best option is to build your lower and buy a completed upper. That way you get the features you want without paying for a bunch of things that you will strip off and replace anyway. By buying your complete upper, you don't need to worry about getting headspacing right or anything like that. It is all done for you.
 
cr5 said:
I built my non restricted ACR for under $3000 (was actually closer to $2500). It's easy to do if you buy a used restricted ACR for around $2000 and then have a barrel made for you. Ian at Herron Arms does a great job but there are other avenues you can take to get to the same place for less money. Having it verified and made non restricted is an easy process as well so don't let that scare you.
My custom made non restricted stainless 300 Blackout conversion barrel cost me just under $500 and a little of my time to get it set up. It's now functioning 100% reliably and is shooting 0.8-0.9 moa most of the time with my handloads if I do my part. Even on an off day I'm still doing 1.5moa or better.

I would save up until you can afford what you really want, you'll be further ahead in the end. If you buy a cheaper rifle just to have something now you'll just end up selling it for a loss later because you won't be happy for long.
If restricted status isn't an issue then an AR is the best rifle you can get. I have 4 of them (9mm, 223, 300BLK, 7.62x51) and if it wasn't for the restricted status I wouldn't own any other rifles other than a precision bolt gun. The AR beats all the other options in almost every respect, some of the others like the XCR or ACR have slightly better ergo's but it's not enough to justify triple the price other than to have the non restricted status. The Tavor is well built but you need to spend a lot of time with it before you will be proficient operating it if you are used to a traditional style rifle.
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I know very little about guns so this might seem like a stupid question. Is it not possible to by a restricted AR and have a longer barrel made for it? Or does it have to be an ACR?
 
Hoag said:
If you believe the guy in this video, don't buy an AR15. Build one.

This is an American video, so take it with a (fairly large) grain of salt.

I have never built one myself (and I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night), but from what I have seen on youtube, and from talking to friends, the best option is to build your lower and buy a completed upper. That way you get the features you want without paying for a bunch of things that you will strip off and replace anyway. By buying your complete upper, you don't need to worry about getting headspacing right or anything like that. It is all done for you.
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That sounds good...would reliability not be compromised by building a Frakenstein-AR? That would be my only concern otherwise it sounds good! Thanks for the post.
 
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