help finding a weak link in my hunt for accuracy?

I've made up my mind I think. I'm going to buy some 75gr Amax's and Varget, another 50 cases (I'll check out the lapua brass when I get to town next). Primers are cheap so I'll get some 450s too. I'll see what they have in Bergers in town too. Buy a hundred of each to start. Should give me a quick ladder and a couple test groups at nodes. I'd like to try the 80's as well but I will wait until summer.
 
a 1 in 9 twist is only good for up to high 68 grainers or thereabouts. Don't bother with higher. Also if you are getting velocity issues (as it sounds) I would consider the following: (in order)

1. Decent scale (Like a GEMPRO 250, NOT those junky cheapo reloading scales you see everywhere)
2. Weight sorted brass
3. Weight sorted bullets
4. Re-weigh powder if using new scale. Be precise.
5. Work up your loads again using .1 grain increments until you find the sweet spot. Use ladder test: youtube.com/watch?v=c5SmiMSF20A
If this doesn't work, and you're still getting vertical spreads then...
6. Change powder, Varget or H335
7. Change Primer. I like CCI 450. Many, including 6MMBR.com recommend the 450 (small magnum for the .223 over the spec 400's)
8. Change bullets.
Just my two cents.
 
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flying pig said:
I've made up my mind I think. I'm going to buy some 75gr Amax's and Varget, another 50 cases (I'll check out the lapua brass when I get to town next). Primers are cheap so I'll get some 450s too. I'll see what they have in Bergers in town too. Buy a hundred of each to start. Should give me a quick ladder and a couple test groups at nodes. I'd like to try the 80's as well but I will wait until summer.
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NO!! Sorry... I tried the 75 gr A-max, The Hornady Match 80's SIerra 69's. Best bullet I found for my Savage .223 is the Sierra 77 gr Match King, even better than the 69 gr SMK Savage uses to proof their barrels. I had great results with Varget also.

My first loads were done with range brass, mostly Federal AE, full length sized, trimmed to length, RCBS dies and Lee Collet die, only neck sizing and full length only as required, Federal Match 205 Primers, 24.2 Gr Varget, giving me 2815 fps out of the 24" barrel.
Lapua brass is excellent and It's all I will use now for my .260. I tried Nosler, and Remington, Lapua is by far superior (for me anyway, I'm not trying to launch a debate or justify my actions, YMMV). Those Gempro scales are nice too. I still use a Dillon Beam scale. but it's more sensitive than the electronic scale I have, which can vary by.1-.2 grains, and mess up a good reloading session.
Just another few cents thrown in to think about.
I never got good reults with the 75 A-max, I used to get a lot of vertical stringing, you would not think it but the 77 stabilizes really well in my 1:9 barrel, my friends barrel, and two others I know of. Try them, they are a bit pricey, but worth it.
 
Crap! Just bought them and the varget. I'll give them a try and see what happens its only $25 I'm out if they don't work. I saw the 77s there too and thought about it. Oh we'll there's lots in stock if this combo doesn't work when I try developing a load with it.
 
New question, how do you guys set your OAL? I tried using an fired and not re formed case to see what length OAL I got. I was setting my OAL at 2.225" with the 65s but I just tried inserting a new bullet into a non neck sized case and closed the bolt on it. The new case\bullet came out at 2.38". Is that the true distance to make the bullet touch the lands? If that distance is really that far would making the bullet jump that far cause what I'm seeing or at least contribute to it?
 
The 223 has a very small case so you are throwing a small amount of powder. If you have a beam scale or one decimal place digital scale you are doing very well to get 12 inches of vertical. If you do the math on the vertical spread caused by 1/2 grain powder change at 600 yards you will see that will cause it. And most likely that is the real powder charge variation you are getting if you test against a good 3 decimal place balance. Now, you can have the best rifle in the world and not shoot much better if your loads are not consistent. If you know someone with a 2 or 3 decimal place scale - try weighing some loads with the better scale and see how that helps.

The next thing is to ensure you are not full length resizing the cases between firing. If you just resize the necks, more energy will be used on moving the bullet forward than on expanding the case to fil the chamber. This leads us to a discussion about how fast a bullet starts into the rifling. The faster it engraves the better it's going to shoot. Since a fire formed case is not expanding, the bullet engraves faster which boosts your velocity and reduces your shot to shot velocity spread.

Now if you do only have a 1 decimal place scale and were loading for a 308 for example - the powder charge would be almost double. This means the percentage of weight variation would be cut in half and velocity spreads would also be cut in half. Bottom line is the powder charge needs to be that much more precise when loading such a small amount of powder for a 223.

If you would like a killer 3 decmal place balance then call Lucian Voiculet at Balance Canada Inc. He sells Vibra balances and they are awsome.
 
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Thanks BadAsMo. I will do some digging into it. I really do think my scale has something to do with it. I also found a couple other things I think could be contributing to the issue. I'll try the new loads and see if there is much improvement between them and the new cheek rest I put on my rifle. If that doesn't show improvement it has to be the scale. I also figured out that with the 65s I was making the bullet jump a LONG way to the lands, I'm showing how green I am a bit here but I never checked the distance to the lands properly and if I had I could have figured out that that bullet wasn't going to work very well.
 
If you're experiencing vertical stringing with multiple firearms, if could be velocity inconsistency, but I have also seen it be breathing during the shot as well causes stringing frequently.

Jack
 
Bullet seating depth is something that you work on after you find the load that works best. If you are changing powder charges, bullets and seating depth with every test you are chasing your tail.
Brass should be FL resized, trimmed to length, flash hole deburred, case mouth chamfered inside and out and then weight sorted before you start testing. Worry about just neck sizing after you find the right load.
Select the bullet that you want to test and a starting load and seat the bullets .020" off the lands to start. For small cases like the .223 go up .2 gr at a time to find the right load. After finding the load that works best, go home and load up 5 more of that same load and 5 each of a load up and down by .1 gr. Only after this should you start playing with the seating depth to fine tune the load. Some bullets are jump tolerant while some are fussy. I know guys that are jumping .308 bullets .040" of more into the lands.
 
With the 65s I had just set them at min OAL. After measuring properly the other night I realized they were actually in excess of .080 off the lands. New load is set .020 off them like everyone has suggested. I have 5 shot groups made up from start load to max in .2gr increases. Hopefully it won't be -40 this weekend and I'll give it a try, along with the new cheek rest.

My breathing should be good, I always wait until my heart rate is calm and breathing normal then exhale until my lungs are at a relaxed point and hold while I squeeze. On a calm day my groups are usually good on the horizontal. I'll post some results on the weekend, pictures are worth 1000 words.
 
You will often find that best short range accuracy is achieved when you jump the bullet just a bit. As you seat the bullet closer to the rifling however your velocity spreads will settle down and at some point possibly suffer some accuracy loss with real steady velocity. The trick is to find a balance in your seating depth that produces the most consistent velocity and short range accuracy. It’s a bit of a compromise but that is the load that will work best at long range.
I’m sorry to disagree with maynard though regarding his statement “Bullet seating depth is something that you work on after you find the load that works best.” It is probably not his intent to be misleading here and probably assumes that your seating depth is already fairly close to the lands. Changing your seating depth from .080” jump to a hard jam will change your pressures and velocity and barrel harmonics. A change of .080 will affect your ideal powder charge.
 
Having shot a bit of ammo in competitions that required issued ammo, most of this ammo is loaded to SAAMI length. If you take a look at scores from the Bisley Imperial Meeting you will see high scores and very high V counts (yes the Bisley V in larger than the Canadian V Bull). The bullet used in the RUAG match ammo is old style 155 SMK's, very jump tolerant.
Seating a bullet into or touching will may reduce velocity spread but you are also at the max pressure that load will produce. By staying .020" off it may help you avoid max pressure as a starting point, unless that is what you are looking for. Loading jammed into the land for compeition isn't the greatest idea, if for some reason there is a cease fire and you have to unload a round already chambered (ask me how I know this).

I ran some 300m tests with 155 gr Nosler, Sierra both old and new style 155's, AMax, Berger 155.5 and Lapua out of my main target rifle. The powder charge remained the same at 46.0 gr of Varget in weight sorted Lapua cases and Fed 210m primers. 5 round each seated touching, .005 off, .010" off etc up to .030" off. Every bullet tried produce the best group seated .020" off the lands.

The point I am trying to make is that, when starting to develop a load don't change more than one variable at a time.
 
Ok so looks like you guys steered me in the right path. 23gr and under the bullets tumbled. By 23.6 accuracy came way up and so did repeatability. The wind came up badly when I got up to 23.8gr so from there up I'm not sure. They seemed to keep opening up though so I'm thinking that 23.6 region is the node I wanted. At 24.6 I got a punctured primer so I quit going up.
I did 5 shot groups with both front and rear bags at 300m.
Next time out I'll try 23.5,23.6,23.7,23.8 and see how things go.
Thanks again for all the help.
 
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