Help identifying an old shotgun?

T

TheMediator

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Howdy y'all.

I purchased this old girl at an auction for a reasonable price (or so i hope) and they did not know the manfucterer or model. It was simply listed as side by side 12ga.

Anyone have any idea how old it is or who made this? If its collectible/valuable I'd like to clean it up and keep it original. If its not worth much and isn't significant from a collectors standpoint I am going to refinish it and make it a recreational shooter.

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https://imgur.com/sB87wtf

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https://imgur.com/vP9GJ8h

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https://imgur.com/ted0Xxm

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https://imgur.com/am9zPgC

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https://imgur.com/J9Od0dx

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https://imgur.com/T73cEjw

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https://imgur.com/xckjOfN

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https://imgur.com/xRxHNnL

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https://imgur.com/j2gsnia

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https://imgur.com/1ARXxKG

I found some markings under the forend on the barrel but don't know what I'm looking for.

P.S. I realize it says remington on the buttpad but based on the fact that it doesn't fit the stock and looks newer that the rest of the gun its safe to assume its not original to the gun.
 
gunsaholic said:
It is about a $75.00 Belgian gun wall hanger. I would not shoot it for several reasons if you value your eyes/limbs!!!
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If lockup is tight and there are no obvious signs of broken parts etc is there any reason why it can't be used? Do they have extremely poor metallurgy? are these prone to just spontaneously combust? will I get Covid?
 
So you obviously have made up your mind and already know the answer to your question. Why bother posting it and then thumbing your nose to the advice of experts in the topic?
 
TheMediator said:
If lockup is tight and there are no obvious signs of broken parts etc is there any reason why it can't be used? Do they have extremely poor metallurgy? are these prone to just spontaneously combust? will I get Covid?
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You asked for advice/information about the gun and people who know answered. If you doubt us, look at some of our posts. It was made in Belgium and it is approx 100 years old, give or take 20. It has no collector value. It was likely made by Pieper or one of the other large factory makers who specialized in making volumes of cheap, hardware store guns, either with no brand on it, the name of the retailer or a name picked from a hat that sounded good. These were Walmart quality guns from before there was a Walmart. Walmart didn't invent cheap crap. It is in horrible condition. It does not lock up tight, despite what you may insinuate. And if you really want to use that to let off explosives encased in steel 1 foot from your face, be my guest.

If you made a poor purchase, we can't help with that. We can only tell you what you have.
 
I will elaborate a bit on my first post as I didn't have time last night. As mentioned, it is not a high quality gun. That in itself does not make it unsafe. What makes it unsafe are the following points; It has barrels that appear to be in poor condition. Look at the open gap on the underside of the barrels that one photo shows. How much water and moisture has gotten in there over time creating serious rust damaging the barrel walls. How badly pitted are the bores? If they look like new then how much have they been honed? Barrel walls should have so much thickness at various points that can only be measured with a proper gauge by someone who knows how to use it. Any old gun such as this should have the walls measured. You say the action is tight. You photos show otherwise and there appears to be quite some space between the barrels and the action. I imagine there is play in the barrels when you hold the gun by the wrist and shake it or rotate it side to side. Where is the opening lever in regards to being centered. Likely it is left of center. Plus the stock is cracked and likely cracked worse internally. These points that are being expressed are what can be seen just from your photos. I'm sure more issues can be found if one had the gun in hand. We have no idea of what you thought you were buying or what you paid but you are not the first one to buy a gun that turned out to be dud. We all have. The important thing is to learn from the experience and maybe ask questions before you buy. If you want to shoot the gun, that is up to you. But I think it would be wise to take our advice and not do so. It may hold together for X number of shots but I wouldn't want to be holding it or be near it when it decides to let go.
 
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gunsaholic said:
I will elaborate a bit on my first post as I didn't have time last night. As mentioned, it is not a high quality gun. That in itself does not make it unsafe. What makes it unsafe are the following points; It has barrels that appear to be in poor condition. Look at the open gap on the underside of the barrels that one photo shows. How much water and moisture has gotten in there over time creating serious rust damaging the barrel walls. How badly pitted are the bores? If they look like new then how much have they been honed? Barrel walls should have so much thickness at various points that can only be measured with a proper gauge by someone who knows how to use it. Any old gun such as this should have the walls measured. You say the action is tight. You photos show otherwise and there appears to be quite some space between the barrels and the action. I imagine there is play in the barrels when you hold the gun by the wrist and shake it or rotate it side to side. Where is the opening lever in regards to being centered. Likely it is left of center. Plus the stock is cracked and likely cracked worse internally. These points that are being expressed are what can be seen just from your photos. I'm sure more issues can be found if one had the gun in hand. We have no idea of what you thought you were buying or what you paid but you are not the first one to buy a gun that turned out to be dud. We all have. The important thing is to learn from the experience and maybe ask questions before you buy. If you want to shoot the gun, that is up to you. But I think it would be wise to take our advice and not do so. It may hold together for X number of shots but I wouldn't want to be holding it or be near it when it decides to let go.
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I apologize if my reply seemed combative. I obviously know very little about the shotgun, I didn't even know how to identify the country of origin. I was just curious as to why it was unsafe. If I bought a car and someone passing by (mechanic or otherwise) said, "hey, that things not safe to drive!" would it not be fair to park the car and ask why? Is it an irredeemable flaw or is there just something that requires a repair etc etc.

I appreciate the insight, it was only 105$ and I've had my share of duds. The barrels do look very shiny, but you mentioned that there is the possibility they have simply just been honed. There is mild play between the action and barrels if you put some decent effort into twisting it back and forth (not much, but if a little is dangerous then I'll take your word for it).

Given that it's been established to have no collectors value, and its shootability is questionable at best I am going to use it as a testbed for some refinishing products that I wouldn't want to test on a 'good' gun. Plus i can take it apart and learn a little about the inner workings of old side by sides without having to worry about breaking something valuable.
 
It is a "Wall Hanger" . Too far gone to restore & not worth much if you did .
I would make a floor lamp out of it , as I have done to DOZENS of these shotguns.
Just leave as is , weld closed , add lamp socket & heavy base.
 
cooey43 said:
It is a "Wall Hanger" . Too far gone to restore & not worth much if you did .
I would make a floor lamp out of it , as I have done to DOZENS of these shotguns.
Just leave as is , weld closed , add lamp socket & heavy base.
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Do you have any pictures? This would actually be a sweet addition to the mancave.
 
yorgi said:
So you obviously have made up your mind and already know the answer to your question. Why bother posting it and then thumbing your nose to the advice of experts in the topic?
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Yeah. The steel will not likely support modern ammo and the rub will become a feature of your skill.
 
TheMediator said:
I apologize if my reply seemed combative. I obviously know very little about the shotgun, I didn't even know how to identify the country of origin. I was just curious as to why it was unsafe. If I bought a car and someone passing by (mechanic or otherwise) said, "hey, that things not safe to drive!" would it not be fair to park the car and ask why? Is it an irredeemable flaw or is there just something that requires a repair etc etc.

I appreciate the insight, it was only 105$ and I've had my share of duds. The barrels do look very shiny, but you mentioned that there is the possibility they have simply just been honed. There is mild play between the action and barrels if you put some decent effort into twisting it back and forth (not much, but if a little is dangerous then I'll take your word for it).

Given that it's been established to have no collectors value, and its shootability is questionable at best I am going to use it as a testbed for some refinishing products that I wouldn't want to test on a 'good' gun. Plus i can take it apart and learn a little about the inner workings of old side by sides without having to worry about breaking something valuable.
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Now that is a great idea. I did something similar years ago.....bought an beat up old Remington 1900 and tore it down, redid the stock. Messed it up. Fixed it. Learned a lot before I ever touched a gun i liked.

It will be a standard Anson and Deeley boxlock design so what you find internally will be quite similar to most British and Belgian guns you run across.
 
TheMediator said:
I obviously know very little about the shotgun, I didn't even know how to identify the country of origin.
Click to expand...

$100 is not a lot to spend on knowledge. If you take the opportunity to learn everything you can from this gun, it can save you a lot of grief and $$$ on your next purchase. Being able to 'read' proof marks is a good start, and there are a lot of on-line and print resources on the subject. From what I can see in your pictures, there is a Belgian provisional black powder proof, and it does not look like it was proofed for smokeless powder, an important piece of information. The bore diameter and choke information is in millimetres (18.0= .710"), and the configuration of how the information is stamped indicates it was made between 1910 and 1924 (proof marks change over time and can help narrow down a manufacture date). The letters under a star are Belgian inspector's marks, which cannot be meaningfully interpreted on Belgian-made guns, but in the case of other nationalities, inspection or craftsmen's marks can be quite illuminating. The 'perron' mark (the line with a diamond-shaped base) is the inspection mark for the breeching system (the action). There may be other marks that are not obvious in the photo, but the point is that these proof markings tell you the origins of the gun and the state of the gun when it was made (you can thank King Charles I for starting this first-ever gun consumer protection in 1637). A gun might look fine, but if current measurements taken by a competent smith don't match the proof marks, you know it has been altered. Such alterations might involve a lengthening of the chamber (most older guns had 2 1/2" or 2 5/8" chambers, not 2 3/4"), which could either be safe or a recipe for disaster, depending on the work and the condition of the gun, or honing the barrels to eliminate pitting (possibly making them too thin to safely use). The combination of corrosive primers and black powder made pitting ahead of the chambers very common on black-powder guns, and the absence of pitting on a well-used gun would be a red flag. Cheaper guns were meant to be disposable, better quality guns last generations with proper care. Cheaper guns rarely got proper care, and damage from rust and time can be well hidden. By all means learn everything you can about old doubles, what the markings indicate, how they work etc., starting with that one. There are very good sources of information on-line about old doubles, what to look for and how to assess them, and don't hesitate to ask for help, there are a lot of knowledgeable folks out there. I certainly count on their experience.

As to auction purchases, they can be fantastic/disappointing. Sometimes you win big, sometimes you take a hit, but at least you always learn something and I've learned to accept that knowledge costs money!
 
Steve I’m glad someone else agrees that Belgian inspector marks are a blind hole not worth going down. Can’t tell how much time I’ve wasted trying to make sense of them.
 
Google “old shotguns made into door handles”. This project is on my list of things to do...I have two JABCs that are on my gun rack waiting for deactivating.
 
TheMediator said:
I apologize if my reply seemed combative. I obviously know very little about the shotgun, I didn't even know how to identify the country of origin. I was just curious as to why it was unsafe. If I bought a car and someone passing by (mechanic or otherwise) said, "hey, that things not safe to drive!" would it not be fair to park the car and ask why? Is it an irredeemable flaw or is there just something that requires a repair etc etc.

I appreciate the insight, it was only 105$ and I've had my share of duds. The barrels do look very shiny, but you mentioned that there is the possibility they have simply just been honed. There is mild play between the action and barrels if you put some decent effort into twisting it back and forth (not much, but if a little is dangerous then I'll take your word for it).

Given that it's been established to have no collectors value, and its shootability is questionable at best I am going to use it as a testbed for some refinishing products that I wouldn't want to test on a 'good' gun. Plus i can take it apart and learn a little about the inner workings of old side by sides without having to worry about breaking something valuable.
Click to expand...

This would be the best option. Take it apart and put it back together and learn the basics of a double. Practice your skills at refinishing/repair and turn it into a nice wall hanger, lamp or whatever idea that might come to mind. You can quite likely get much more than $105.00 worth of knowledge from it and have some kind of a display piece when you are finished.
 
Well it hasn't blown up yet... an option is to keep on using it with light factory loads until it does... make sure you wear eye protection...
 
guntech said:
Well it hasn't blown up yet... an option is to keep on using it with light factory loads until it does... make sure you wear eye protection...
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So are you telling him to go ahead and shoot it until it blows and maybe taking a finger, hand or arm with it ? How do you know when last it was shot and why it was auctioned?
 
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