Help identifying old flintlock musket (**more pics added ! **)
- Thread starter muddywaters
- Start date
At first glance it looks like a nice old Trade Gun. Give us more info on caliber, rifled or smooth bore, a close up of the lock and opposite side showing the side plate, ramrod pipes and fore-end cap. Any other stamped markings on the lock plate or barrel? Any info as to source or history would be helpful too.
It would be interesting to see the left side of the gun. Also a close up of the lock --- is there a name on the lock and are there any proof marks on the barrel on the left side rear. The lock has a rainproof pan on it which is good. The trigger guard does not look appropriate for a trade gun nor the engraved butt plate
cheers mooncoon
cheers mooncoon
Look at the second photo from the top. The trigger is toward the back of the guard. It just has some movement.
The lock panel is sized for the lock. This stock was made for this lock - unless it is a replacement of the correct size.
The rear sight on the tang strikes me as being European. The trigger guard looks French, maybe the buttplate, too.
Stock isn't walnut. Looks like maple. This would suggest North American assembly. I'm wondering if it might not have been set up in Quebec. Have seen other Quebec guns made using a variety of parts.
Of course, the Northeastern part of the US could be a possibility as well.
The more I look at the photos, the more interesting the gun becomes. My initial impression was sort of ho hum. I'm thinking now that the gun needs to be studied very carefully. Too bad that provenance is so often lost.
The lock panel is sized for the lock. This stock was made for this lock - unless it is a replacement of the correct size.
The rear sight on the tang strikes me as being European. The trigger guard looks French, maybe the buttplate, too.
Stock isn't walnut. Looks like maple. This would suggest North American assembly. I'm wondering if it might not have been set up in Quebec. Have seen other Quebec guns made using a variety of parts.
Of course, the Northeastern part of the US could be a possibility as well.
The more I look at the photos, the more interesting the gun becomes. My initial impression was sort of ho hum. I'm thinking now that the gun needs to be studied very carefully. Too bad that provenance is so often lost.
maple_leaf_eh
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
The definitive identifiers for a native Trade Gun are a curved dragon shaped brass plate on the left side of the action. The classic Hudson Bay trade gun was made by Grice and has a seated fox as its trademark. The trigger guard is also larger for use in winter. Finally, I recall the cheapest but most practical buttplate was not brass, but a piece of bent sheet iron.
I don't own one, but I had to learn a bit when I was offered one at a gun show. Those points have stuck with me.
I don't own one, but I had to learn a bit when I was offered one at a gun show. Those points have stuck with me.
The dragon side plate, flat nailed butt plate and large loop on the trigger guard are identifiers on English trade guns. Those parts on French trade guns are typically much different. Tiriaq has made some excellent observations. This is a very interesting piece, but I do not think it is a trade gun. The lock, with it's waterproof pan and roller on the frizzen spring, looks much too late for a trade gun. I think it is English manufacture and probably dates to the late flint period. I would agree with the speculation it is perhaps Quebec or Northeastern US origin and I think it is best described as a full stocked fusil or fowler dating to the late flint period.
I recommend the OP join americanlongrifles.org and post photos there. There are a lot of experts on the subject there and I am certain he would receive a wealth of opinion.
I am sure that I have posted most of these photos before but here are some of the marks again. Pictured are the "tombstone fox" of the HBC, the circle fox of the NW Co and the butt stamp of acceptance by the HBC (a running fox)
cheers mooncoon
cheers mooncoon
The lock certainly suggests English manufacture and late flint period. The engraved butt plate, cast in engraving on the lock plate and a fore-end cap suggest an upgrade from any average trade gun so maybe a fowler or "Chief's Gun"? The few Chief's Guns I have seen did not have the over-sized trigger guard or dragon side-plate.
maple_leaf_eh
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
A few things occurred to me after posting. If the brass plate is original, it wouldn't have been any ordinary piece. It would have been something special. The brass for example would not have been as easy to dismantle and use as a hide scraper. The nicer trigger guard would have meant it was harder to use, and therefore less likely to get hard use. You may be on to something suggesting it is a chief's gun.
