Help IDing German cartridge!

gabrielguitars

gabrielguitars

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Hey, Nutz! I'm certainly no stranger to oddball and obsolete cartridges, and I think I have at least the 8th edition of COTW memorized verbatim, but I am really stumped this time! I just picked up a really neat old German rifle locally. The action is a scaled-down version of the '71 Mauser, but with trigger-activated bolt stop, a la a modern Savage. It has double-set triggers, a sweet hawksbill (?) cheekpiece, and a full octagon barrel. The rifling up close to the chamber is rather worn and pitted, but the bore gets better and better as you travel down it, with a very nice bore from 1/3 to 1/2 down the barrel. I expect it to shoot rather well. The question is the chambering. When I bought it, having seen other guns of this style, I guessed it was most likely one of the x47r family of cartridges, probably 10x47R. I was really wrong. I cast the chamber, and what I found was a cartridge that seems to be based off of the standard Mauser A-base (.43 Mauser/11.15X60r is my current choice), but only about 41 mm long. I thought at first blush that it was chambered in the same cartridge as my Werder sporting rifle, the 11.5x35r, but it is almost the same cartridge, just longer. It is a .458 calibre, with a base diameter of .524", a neck of .480", and the earlier-mentioned length of 41 mm, or 1.61". Colour me stumped! The nice thing is that I can use .43 Mauser brass cut down, and back my Werder dies off, and it seems to work fine, so shooting it should be no problem, but I am very curious as to what it is. Any ideas? There aren't many cartridges with that length to my knowledge, and none of the dies listed at CH4D seem to work, so . . . help! The first picture is of one of my Werder cartridges next to the cast for comparision.



 
Very neat gun. The wear / patina overall looks consistent. I think a gentleman would have paid a superior price for something like this. The lower sling mount is odd too. Any marks / stamps / engravings?

Interesting rifling.


I'm curious too.
 
The rear sling mount post is actually the exact same style that was used on muzzleloading Jaeger rifles. It works as a large button, just like a button on a shirt. As to your other question, I've taken it out of the stock, and there are no markings on it anywhere, other than the four-digit serial number. In working up a dummy round last night with a piece of Bertram .43 Mauser brass, I've found that I will have to do a little neck turning or inside reaming.
 
I've been doing more searching, and the closest thing I can find is the .45-50 Peabody. The base of the Peabody is a bit small at .516", but it would work. The rim is the problem, as it is like .634", but my chamber only has about a .584" rim, if memory serves. Other than that, it is so close it almost hurts!
 
The gun must have been made prior to the German 1891 proof laws, if it truly has no proof stamps on it. On the other hand, it might have been made as a tst piece not intended for sale, by an apprentice. Anyhow, I'm finding your measurements in imperial is tying my head in knots - this is a European gun and everything about it will be metric.

I have to admit that it looked like the 10.8x47R Martini target cartridge, but the length is wrong, according to your measurements.

tac
 
I have been doing the bulk of my searching in metric, indeed. It should be something like a 11.5x41r, or pretty close to it, but I'm not getting anywhere. As far as when it was made, I would expect mid 1870's to late 1880's, considering the action used, the style of cartridge, and other similar guns that have been positively dated. I at least have finally been able to create a cartridge that will chamber. It involves trimming .43 Mauser brass, sizing, trimming, neck turning, sizing again, loading, and then sizing again without the expander. These old girls sure are jealous of your time and attention, they want it all! I just keep thinking about the opportunity to shoot it, and possibly take a deer with it, and it keeps me going.
 
This might help out - it might be a 11.2x37R, pictures etc. are here > Nitroexpress Site > Mauser Photos & Archive > Page # 2 > see 71-84, .43 Cal., Mauser by John 303.
Near the top of the page, your cartridge looks very close. FWIW --- John 303.
 
John 303 has nailed it, I believe. It appears to be the 11.15x37.5R German, sometimes listed as the 11.2x37R. The thing odd about it is that the bullet diameter is listed as .445", like the .43 Mauser, but the chamber cast tells a different story. The interesting thing is that the cartridge was made for a spcial version of the 71/84, Mauser, called the 1879. It says that this special-purpose cartridge is a cut down version of the military one, which is the .43 Mauser. So, when I said I could make it by shortening the .43 Mauser brass I had, I was right, as well as using my Werder dies backed off a bit, since the .43 Mauser was created by lengthening the Werder cartridge! That means I now have rifles chambered in the Werder round, then the lengthened version of it (.43 Mauser), and then the shortened version of that (11.15x37.5R)! Too funny!
 
Green, I can't find the G. Roth listing you are talking about. Is it a printed book, or a website? I would really like to find it, in case I am wrong about this. I would rather it be the longer cartridge, I think.
 
Ok, so I finally found a listing for the 11.2x41.5 Mauser that Green mentioned, and I think it could be that instead. The only buggaboo is that the rim diameter I've found is larger than my chamber by about .015". That's not a lot, but it would keep it from working in my gun. That isn't to say that the original example that was measured was proper,or was measured properly, of course. All this is rather a moot point ultimately, as I will be loading to fit the gun, but it would be nice to know for sure, especially if I sold it at some later date.
 
gg; I forgot to say that is a nice old rifle, I'd like to find a trigger guard like that one.
Just to add I had some .43 Mauser cases made out of 45-70 cases - a little short but in your
"case" it might be the perfect solution. --- John
 
Track of the Wolf has a triggerguard almost identical to that one, you should check it out. I was also using .45-70 cases cut down for my Werder, but I found I had a good bit of trouble with FTF due to thin rim headspace issues. I'm going to try out some 8 mm Lebel cases that I was working on for the Werder. I've had to turn down the bases and rims, and then I'll have to turn the necks as well, but they will work.
 
From "1904 DWM Catalogue"
11.55x40.4 Scheibenbuchsen.
Ctg case has same head and rim dia as 43 Mauser.
Bt 11.55 mm dia, wt 22 gm.
 
Jeez, Green, that sounds to be absolutely bang-on with my measurements. I was having trouble reconciling the 11.6 mm measurements of the bore with what I was finding listed for the other two cartridges, as well as the case length discrepencies. I would definitely say that it looks like a target cartridge (hence, "scheibenbuchsen"), but this definitely strikes me more as a hunting arm. The double set triggers would fit with either target or sporting, but the stock design and the light barrel speak of hunting to me. The nice thing with German arms is that their target gun features definitely show up in the hunting pieces, perhaps because they were expected to do dual duty? BTW, I thought it cool that when you gave me the bullet weight in grams, I did the conversion and came up with 339.something grains. Bullet weight I'm loading? - 340 grains. Thanks, BTW!
 
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