Help in tempering my own graver

MBiz

MBiz

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Good evening,
I intend to make my own graver by using 0,125 inch steel road currently available in hardware store. They are two unknowns that I hope you can help with.
1. can I temper them with simple propane torch used in plumbing. Should I used water or oil to temper them?
2. Rod available in hardware stores do not indicate carbone percentage. Is the carbon percentage important?

Thank you for your assistance
 
Carbon percentage is of the utmost importance. Mild steel will not harden to anywhere near hard enough to do the job. Once you've found some good tool steel you have to get it hot enough it's no longer magnetic. Then the quench depends on the steel. Oil is usually better than water but it all depends on the steel.
 
You can't harden mild steel like hardware store cold rolled steel, you need dill rod or such. To harden steel it needs to be heated till its non magnetic and then quenched in either oil or water. It then needs to be drawn back or tempered by heating it again till it reaches a light straw color. All this can be accomplished with a propane torch if the piece is small enough. You could use an old screwdriver for the metal as most will harden nicely.
 
hunter5425 said:
You can't harden mild steel like hardware store cold rolled steel, you need dill rod or such. To harden steel it needs to be heated till its non magnetic and then quenched in either oil or water. It then needs to be drawn back or tempered by heating it again till it reaches a light straw color. All this can be accomplished with a propane torch if the piece is small enough. You could use an old screwdriver for the metal as most will harden nicely.
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Do you mean drill rod? Also, I would like to thread one end of the graver. I assume it will be easier to thread before tempering??
 
do you have a fastenal store near by ? you can pick up drill rod or rounds in that size.. the water quenching is usually w1 steel and the oil quenching is O1 ( do ask )

Do all your shaping in the soft state...

There are many places that sell precision rounds of known steel... knowing what steel it is will help you set up the heat treat regime to get the desired Rc hardness in your graver

Hardware store steel is most likely not hardenable
And yes you can heat treat with propane torch.. temper in oven
 
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dimeN said:
do you have a fastenal store near by ? you can pick up drill rod or rounds in that size.. the water quenching is usually w1 steel and the oil quenching is O1 ( do ask )

Do all your shaping in the soft state...

There are many places that sell precision rounds of known steel... knowing what steel it is will help you set up the heat treat regime to get the desired Rc hardness in your graver
Click to expand...

Sorry for my ignorance, do drill rod come non-tempered and tempered. Also the size of my graver will be 0,125" X 2,5".
 
dimeN said:
do you have a fastenal store near by ? you can pick up drill rod or rounds in that size.. the water quenching is usually w1 steel and the oil quenching is O1 ( do ask )

Do all your shaping in the soft state...

There are many places that sell precision rounds of known steel... knowing what steel it is will help you set up the heat treat regime to get the desired Rc hardness in your graver
Click to expand...

And yes we have fastenal store and may be Spaenaur
 
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Call Metal Supermarket in Ottawa, ask for what they have and can get for 1/8” tool steel rods, likely they have some (years since I’ve been there, used to walk in say hi to the staff and walk in the back to grab more O-1 steel for my knives). Likely need something hotter like MAPP gas to use with a torch, but for 1/8”, should be fine with propane, depending on length you want to use. Go to CT in the fireplace section, buy a brick of the high temp brick, $6 and use that to heat on. Can do the magnet test, I just go visual, a nice even popsicle orange colour, then quench in canola oil, pull out, quench a again, repeat. Temper in toaster oven for an hour at 400F, let cool, should end up around 390-400RC.

And yes, thread it and shape it first while annealed, then do the heat treat and temper. A file will skate off it after the process I just outlined.
 
STKR Knives said:
Call Metal Supermarket in Ottawa, ask for what they have and can get for 1/8” tool steel rods, likely they have some (years since I’ve been there, used to walk in say hi to the staff and walk in the back to grab more O-1 steel for my knives). Likely need something hotter like MAPP gas to use with a torch, but for 1/8”, should be fine with propane, depending on length you want to use. Go to CT in the fireplace section, buy a brick of the high temp brick, $6 and use that to heat on. Can do the magnet test, I just go visual, a nice even popsicle orange colour, then quench in canola oil, pull out, quench a again, repeat. Temper in toaster oven for an hour at 400F, let cool, should end up around 390-400RC.

And yes, thread it and shape it first while annealed, then do the heat treat and temper. A file will skate off it after the process I just outlined.
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This is great advice. Follow this and you'll be on your way.
 
You can also go to an engraving website and get the cutters. They are not expensive, less than $10 and designed and ready to do what you want.
 
MBiz said:
Good evening,
I intend to make my own graver by using 0,125 inch steel road currently available in hardware store. They are two unknowns that I hope you can help with.
1. can I temper them with simple propane torch used in plumbing. Should I used water or oil to temper them?
2. Rod available in hardware stores do not indicate carbone percentage. Is the carbon percentage important?

Thank you for your assistance
Click to expand...

Gesswin Canada sells graver blanks in the size you stated - both HSS & Carbide ... shape them to whatever you like.

Trying to harden unknown steels i'm afraid is a lesson in futility.

if you want to go the do it yourself still, as everyone stated there are tons of places that sell small bits of known steels (metals plus, metal supermarket - there's one in Ottawa I believe) stick with O1 - you can heat small bits with a torch & oil quench, A2 sounds better in theory, but you need some specialized heating equipment to temper it properly.

A really old 60^ file also works quite well. :)
 
drill rod comes in many states... but most likely it will be in a soft annealed state with a small grain structure ready for heat treatment. You can get hardened precision ground rounds aswell..

mind my asking, what is the purpose for the gravers ? Cutting/carving wood or metal

If your just experimenting... just grab an old nicholson chainsaw file and use that as stock. Last correspondence i had with a nicholson about their steel was told that it was to be heat treated like w1 steel.
The file is in a hard state ... so you can grind the tip to shape as long as you are very careful not to overheat it and remove the temper ( frequently dunk tip in water to cool it )
Once your done shaping... put it in your kitchen over to temper it down as a files Rc hardness is to high for a chisel... look at the chart for W1 steel to determine what temperature is needed for desired Rc hardness... if its chippy, then retemper at higher heat.
... remember... tempering must be held at temp for about an hour... then redone
.. dont not go by oxide colors on outside of steel.. this is a bs indicator of temp


Or if you choose to totally soften the steel... i can run down how to heat treat from scratch


MBiz said:
Sorry for my ignorance, do drill rod come non-tempered and tempered. Also the size of my graver will be 0,125" X 2,5".
Click to expand...
 
heat a piece of steel to austenizing temp then quickly cool it in an appropriate quenchant till its completetly cool .. you now have a hard brittle structure called untempered martensite ! it will have a very high hardness but very low tougness and can be easily broken like glass. Now put your sample in an oven and set it to 400 F for example ... Now the stressed state of untempered martensite is being relieved and you will lose Rc hardness but gain alot in toughness. Tempering has a time function to it ... its why industry will set up hold times at temperature to ensure a tempered martensite. However, you should also repeat the tempering process because some of the initial austenite structure maybe have been retained in the steel. The retained austenite will then get tripped off by the tempering cycle and you may end up with areas in your steel of untempered martensite ( brittle ). A second tempering cycle will then take care of that problem .

ok .. that was just a quicky run through on the process

the oxide colors on the outside of steel can be affect by alot.. by alloy composition, by heat source, lack of oxygen, surface condition, and so on ( its a superficial oxide ... how people believe that is a true indicator of the internal structure of the steel is just weird ... like witchcraft )
.. yes, i know alot of the old timey books talk about tempering colors ... and they've made alot of very poorly heat treated tools

NB.. last place you should look for heat treating advice is a tv show called forged in fire ... although entertaining to watch, absolutely mindblowing in bad heat treating


Dogfish858 said:
Curious as to why oxide colors aren't a good indicator?
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dimeN said:
drill rod comes in many states... but most likely it will be in a soft annealed state with a small grain structure ready for heat treatment. You can get hardened precision ground rounds aswell..

mind my asking, what is the purpose for the gravers ? Cutting/carving wood or metal

If your just experimenting... just grab an old nicholson chainsaw file and use that as stock. Last correspondence i had with a nicholson about their steel was told that it was to be heat treated like w1 steel.
The file is in a hard state ... so you can grind the tip to shape as long as you are very careful not to overheat it and remove the temper ( frequently dunk tip in water to cool it )
Once your done shaping... put it in your kitchen over to temper it down as a files Rc hardness is to high for a chisel... look at the chart for W1 steel to determine what temperature is needed for desired Rc hardness... if its chippy, then retemper at higher heat.
... remember... tempering must be held at temp for about an hour... then redone
.. dont not go by oxide colors on outside of steel.. this is a bs indicator of temp


Or if you choose to totally soften the steel... i can run down how to heat treat from scratch
Click to expand...

The purpose of the graver is restore some engraved pre-first war type 2 an 3 Browning auto-5. First I need to learn to engrave. I believe the first step is to know how to make and sharpen gravers.
 
MBiz said:
The purpose of the graver is restore some engraved pre-first war type 2 an 3 Browning auto-5. First I need to learn to engrave. I believe the first step is to know how to make and sharpen gravers.
Click to expand...

No, first you REALLY need to understand heat treating and the terms which each have very specific meanings.

To TEMPER steel, is to take it from being absolutely as hard as it will get, and make it softer, but less prone to breaking.

First you harden it, then you temper it. At least, for carbon steel.

But unless you really want to make more misery for yourself than most, what you actually want to do, is buy 1/8 inch square High Speed Steel (=HSS) graver blanks or HSS lathe tool blanks. High Speed Steel, or HSS is called that because it will cut normal steel while at a red hot heat. It takes a lot to screw it up, and not a bunch to get it sharp again.
 
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