Help! Martini - Enfield expert required.

Sharptail

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I am looking at a Martini - Enfield originally built in 1876 as a Martini Henry Mark I, then converted to a Mark II, and finally to the .303 British round in 1899.

The left side of the frame bears marks as follows: a crown over the letters "V. R." over "1899" over "M. E. 303" over "A. C. III" over "1" (see photo, sorry about the DOF).

me303.jpg


It is the significance of the "A. C. III" mark which eludes me. Can anyone tell me the meaning of A.C. III?

Thank you in advance for your response.

Sharptail
 
Hi....I do believe the A.C. is Austrailian Commonwealth, III is the mark of arms.
The AC was used 1900 to 1910 but timeline is close.......junkman
 
Thank you, gentlemen. If the III indicates a Mark III status, then according to the martinihenry web page, it should have the following features:

Employed a lighter barrel, with the built in sight protectors (wings)
Utilizes a modified MkIII forend assy with the hook method of attaching to the reciever
Small cocking indicator to reduce snagging when used in saddlebuckets

This gun has no sight protector wings, and it uses the pin method of attaching the fore end. It also has a large (1.25") cocking indicator. Perhaps upgraded guns were not given these features.

As for the A. C., Artillery Carbine makes perfect sense. The rifle does have the 21 inch barrel. I had seen a photo of another ME conversion dated 1899, and it simply showed a "II" (not a III), with no A. C. preceding it.

If this gun could talk, it could speak for hours. A Mark I / II / III in two different calibres over its life span, and it's not finished yet.

Sharptail
 
Artillery Carbine

I'm "one of the guys" from the British Militaria Forums linked to above ...

The "A.C. III" marking on the receiver denotes "Artillery Carbine Mark III"

"C.C." in the same place would signify Cavalry Carbine ....

As you undoubtedly know, the crown and cypher are those of Queen Victoria, "Enfield" denotes Royal Small Arms Factory Enfield, "M.E." stands for Martini-Enfield, and the arabic numeral "1" signifies that it was rated as a Class 1 arm when finished ...

mecarbines.jpg


The above scan shows -

- M-E Mk I Cavalry Carbine at the top (no bayonet, no sling swivels, projecting screwheads on the sides of the forestock, directly below the rear sight, to affix a leather sight protector.)

- two M-E Artillery Carbines, a MkI in the middle and a MkIII at the bottom. Differences are subtle ... one easily noted difference is that the bayonet fixation bar projecting from the nosecap should have no clearing rod channel in it, since the MKIII A.C. was introduced after the abolition of clearing rods for .303 caliber firearms .... (Earlier Marks will have the rod channel, but are unlikely to be found with a rod, since rods were also removed from all earlier rifles and carbines fitted with them under this order.)
 
Grant, thanks. I had gathered much of this info, but some of it does me no good. The gun I have here has been sporterized by the expeditious removal of the barrel band and the creation of a splinter fore end from the existing stock. A dreadful thing to do to a gun of this experience. Maybe a replacement fore end and barrel band can be found.

I am still puzzled as to why this gun is labeled as a Mk. III. It really has the features of a Mk. II rifle with the .303 carbine barrel. The serial numbers on the barrel and the forward edge of the frame (hidden by the wood) match - 74XX with no leading letter - so it was built this way. I do not understand why they didn't just call it a Mk. II.

Sharptail
 
Sharptail said:
... I am still puzzled as to why this gun is labeled as a Mk. III. ...
The confusion you are experiencing arises from the fact that the "Mark III" designation refers to the version of Martini-Enfield Artillery Carbine this Martini-Henry was converted into ... not to the pattern of Martini-Henry Rifle it started out as. :rolleyes:

As I mentioned, the A.C. Mark III differed in subtle ways from Mark I or II versions - one evident difference would have been that it would not have had any provision for the clearing (cleaning) rod - i.e. no hole through the nosecap - as the conversion process which produced your carbine occurred in 1899, after clearing rods had been abolished on all .303 rifles and carbines. (Because your carbine has been altered, that difference wouldn't be apparent, of course.)

One thing which could maybe help in understanding this is that all of the markings relating to the original production of this arm as a Martini-Henry should be on the right side of the receiver body. For example, though you haven't shown the original markings on that side of your reciever, you do mention that your carbine was originally produced as a Mark I Martini-Henry, subsequently upgraded to a Mark II. Assuming that the right-side markings are true to form, that fact would be evident from the original "Mark" designation having been a roman numeral one, usually followed by a period - i.e. "I." - which would be centered directly below the other markings. When upgraded to Mark II specifications (as happened to almost all Mark I Martini-Henry arms) the second "I" of the roman numeral was added just to the right of the first "I" (usually partially covering - though not obliterating - the period) so the new Mark designation then appeared somewhat like "I.I", slightly off-center to the right. Is that how your markings appear?

The next part of the puzzle to keep in mind is that any markings regarding conversion of a Martini-Henry to .303 caliber (either Martini-Metford or Martini-Enfield) were to be placed on the left side of the receiver (i.e. the markings you have shown) and that all of these markings relate to the conversion and new designation as a .303 rifle or carbine.

One notable exception to these general rules are the "Citadel" Martini-Enfield rifles, which were converted at the Citadel Arsenal in Cairo, Egypt, using rifles and parts supplied by the United Kingdom. The new markings do appear of the left side of the receiver, but the original right-side markings were "scrubbed" - i.e. obliterated. That is another story ... the "short version" being that from about 1881-82 until the outbreak of WWI Egypt was almost completely within the British sphere of influence (e.g. British forces stationed there, a Royal Navy station maintained at Alexandria, and the Egyptian Army being trained, and largely officered, by the British, etc.) in order to safeguard Britain's interest in the Suez Canal. However, Egypt remained - technically, at least - a province of the Ottoman Empire. Thus it just "wouldn't do" for the Egyptian armed forces to have British-marked rifles .... ;) However, when Turkey entered the war on the "wrong side", all such pretence was swept aside and Egypt was declared a British Protectorate - indeed, the British Near East Headquarters was in Cairo throughout WWI ... remember "Lawrence of Arabia"?)
 
Grant, thanks again. Your description of the right side of the gun is spot on. Here is a picture:

me303rt.jpg


As I interpret the history of this gun, it was built in 1876 (the last year of Mk. I production) and probably went off to war somewhere (Zulu war was 1879, right? Perhaps The Second Anglo-Afghan War? The First Boer War ? The British had a lot of wars going on around that time). After a time the gun returned home, was converted to a Mk. II and relegated to Class 2 status. It no doubt served time training cadets. Then, in 1899 it was converted into a Martini Enfield and restored back to Class 1 status, just in time for the Second Boer War. Who knows if the old girl saw action in any of these conflicts, but it is fun to speculate.

It is strange that there is no "sold out of service" mark on the gun, and I have no idea when or where it was "sporterized". I can tell you it was a while ago by the wear on the chequering which was applied. Here is what the gun looks like today:

me303ov.jpg


I had the rifle checked for headspace today (thanks, K&S), and it is safe to shoot, if a little sloppy. YeeHa! It'll probably take me a week to clean the bore, but the rifling is still deep. A .311 jacketed bullet pushed into the muzzle stops just a hair short of the cannelure. This carbine is still a shooter. Talk about durable goods!

As for the stock markings: Manufacturer's roundel: Lifesaver style roundel with no marking in the centre. "R (crown) M" curved along the top half, "ENFIELD" curved along the bottom. If "Mark" and "Class" markings were present, they are undecipherable now. All that remains are four faint parallel vertical lines.
Brass stock disc: No markings at all. Disc and retaining screw appear original, but who knows?

Thanks again, guys.

Sharptail
 
Sharptail,

That's a lovely piece! I have a .303 carbine as well, currently off at Ellwood Epps having an SMLE Nº1 barrel fitted, as the original was shot out. I don't read the BP& Antiques forum much, so just came across this and the wealth of info that GrantR gave you. I'll have to have a look at mine when I get it back in a couple of weeks. I do recall that it has relatively few markings.

I've been refinishing the stock while it is away. After stripping the old finish I discovered that the butt stock is English walnut (and looking very nice indeed after a little red oak stain and tung & teak oil) and but the short forearm appears to be black walnut, so am trying to find a piece of English walnut to make a new, longer forearm.

I also have a .310 Cadet (for which I have a spare barrel which will probably be relined to 32-20 to make loading for it less of a problem) and am amazed at how good the Martini triggers are. A little heavy, but they break very cleanly.

:) Stuart
 
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