Help me interpret this data! (Picture Heavy)
- Thread starter bluedixon
- Start date
Well. This is embarrassing.
I was so excited to try out my monopod, thinking it was going to be the polish on my hold. So excited, in fact, I purposely left my homemade rear bag behind assuming I wouldn't need something so unrefined.
It was quite apparent just sitting adjusting my parallax that the monopod SUCKS. Here is where I should have stopped, and gone home.
I became so aware of the pulse in my face, that I couldn't hold the rifle still to save my life. I had to have the rifle so high on the bipod to accommodate the height of the monopod, that it was rickety, to put it mildly.
#@$%!
I wanted to throw the target away, as this wasn't a test of the ammo, but instead a test of my inability to use this monopod.
Ever feel like you've wasted the afternoon? This was shot at 250.
I did get a chance to test for pressure signs. Luckily I couldn't screw this up. These 4 times fired brass are starting to show their age. I lost two primers, as you can see. I'm sure if I had marked them while loading, these would correspond to the ones that felt far too easy to seat. Another learning lesson.
Still seeing pressure signs at 40.8. Noted.
A trip to Canadian Tire was obviously needed. 1 Pair of winter socks, a jug of heavy airsoft pellets, a bag of rice, freezer ziploc's and some zap straps.
3 different bags, all varying in density. The blue one is straight pellets. Ive used this for ages now, but it feels "gritty" when squeezing.
The larger of the black is 50/50 rice to pellets, and the small one is more rice and packed firmer. This feels quite nice rigid with very little effort.
I'll do up another 50 to match what I wasted today and conduct both tests tomorrow.
I was so excited to try out my monopod, thinking it was going to be the polish on my hold. So excited, in fact, I purposely left my homemade rear bag behind assuming I wouldn't need something so unrefined.
It was quite apparent just sitting adjusting my parallax that the monopod SUCKS. Here is where I should have stopped, and gone home.
I became so aware of the pulse in my face, that I couldn't hold the rifle still to save my life. I had to have the rifle so high on the bipod to accommodate the height of the monopod, that it was rickety, to put it mildly.
#@$%!
I wanted to throw the target away, as this wasn't a test of the ammo, but instead a test of my inability to use this monopod.
Ever feel like you've wasted the afternoon? This was shot at 250.
I did get a chance to test for pressure signs. Luckily I couldn't screw this up. These 4 times fired brass are starting to show their age. I lost two primers, as you can see. I'm sure if I had marked them while loading, these would correspond to the ones that felt far too easy to seat. Another learning lesson.
Still seeing pressure signs at 40.8. Noted.
A trip to Canadian Tire was obviously needed. 1 Pair of winter socks, a jug of heavy airsoft pellets, a bag of rice, freezer ziploc's and some zap straps.
3 different bags, all varying in density. The blue one is straight pellets. Ive used this for ages now, but it feels "gritty" when squeezing.
The larger of the black is 50/50 rice to pellets, and the small one is more rice and packed firmer. This feels quite nice rigid with very little effort.
I'll do up another 50 to match what I wasted today and conduct both tests tomorrow.
40.1 looks good, right in the middle of the two groups displaying little to no vertical dispersion, learning to read the wind will tighten up the horizontal spread, I'd be inclined to load 20 rounds up like this and shoot four 5 shot groups and measure all of them and see what the average is
although it didn't feel comfortable shooting with the mono pod it's obvious with the groups that you had some good signs of consistency with the rifle, no real wild groups with the exception of that one that shot that caught you off gaurd
although it didn't feel comfortable shooting with the mono pod it's obvious with the groups that you had some good signs of consistency with the rifle, no real wild groups with the exception of that one that shot that caught you off gaurd
This is becoming an exercise in futility lately.
Spent the morning doing up a replacement batch for the ones I wasted yesterday. Only to realize, I didn't have enough 140 SMK to complete it.
Cue the 140 Bergers. These looked long the moment I opened the box. I set up and measured my chamber with one of them and established my CBTO and ran with it.
Man these things are long when set to 0.010" off the lands. OAL is nearly 2.940". Wont fit in PMAG's so into the AICS they go.
Man these things are long. Little did I know that I would run into a problem.
I used to always do a dummy cartridge. Gave me a chance to load and unload it without any risk, plus I always had a reference to measure off for future loads.
Why I stopped, I have no idea but it came to bite me in the ass today.
Set up, I shot this with my 139 Scenars @ 250. I used the firm sandbag. So much more controllable than the monopod, and confidence inspiring. Yet another showing of the lower powder charges staying tight and relatively repeatable.
It was on/off wind, but I hung falling boundry ribbon to have a gauge while shooting.
Business as usual, then I got to my freshly morning loaded 140 Bergers.
First round, wont chamber. I hear something trickle down into the magazine. A primer.
Granted, while I was loading, I marked any cartridges that felt as though the primers went in too easy. There was only 2, and this happen to be one. The oddity is that these are only 2x fired. Loose primer pockets already?
Thinking this was simply bound up, I tried cartridge number 2. Wont feed.
2 seconds of looking into the breech, and I realized that I'm a complete moron. The nose of the bullet, extends under the feedramp 0.080".
Instead of single loading these and testing them, I went and pulled my targets and came home. If they wont feed out of my magazine, they aren't any use to me. Now I'm facing seating much deeper with a jump of nearly 0.080-0.100".
I'm that dog running around his leash pole, with it shortening quickly. Lesson learned.
Always do a dummy, and test.
Spent the morning doing up a replacement batch for the ones I wasted yesterday. Only to realize, I didn't have enough 140 SMK to complete it.
Cue the 140 Bergers. These looked long the moment I opened the box. I set up and measured my chamber with one of them and established my CBTO and ran with it.
Man these things are long when set to 0.010" off the lands. OAL is nearly 2.940". Wont fit in PMAG's so into the AICS they go.
Man these things are long. Little did I know that I would run into a problem.
I used to always do a dummy cartridge. Gave me a chance to load and unload it without any risk, plus I always had a reference to measure off for future loads.
Why I stopped, I have no idea but it came to bite me in the ass today.
Set up, I shot this with my 139 Scenars @ 250. I used the firm sandbag. So much more controllable than the monopod, and confidence inspiring. Yet another showing of the lower powder charges staying tight and relatively repeatable.
It was on/off wind, but I hung falling boundry ribbon to have a gauge while shooting.
Business as usual, then I got to my freshly morning loaded 140 Bergers.
First round, wont chamber. I hear something trickle down into the magazine. A primer.
Granted, while I was loading, I marked any cartridges that felt as though the primers went in too easy. There was only 2, and this happen to be one. The oddity is that these are only 2x fired. Loose primer pockets already?
Thinking this was simply bound up, I tried cartridge number 2. Wont feed.
2 seconds of looking into the breech, and I realized that I'm a complete moron. The nose of the bullet, extends under the feedramp 0.080".
Instead of single loading these and testing them, I went and pulled my targets and came home. If they wont feed out of my magazine, they aren't any use to me. Now I'm facing seating much deeper with a jump of nearly 0.080-0.100".
I'm that dog running around his leash pole, with it shortening quickly. Lesson learned.
Always do a dummy, and test.
bergers also perform well with a .110 thou jump, don't sweat it just yet
loose primer pockets after 2 firings is somewhat a cause for concern, what is the headspamp of the brass your using? I've seen this if your brass is smaller in the base then your chamber is, usually more a issue on european chamberings and western brass, the 6.5x55 and 6.5x284 come to mind however not so much the 6.5 creed
loose primer pockets after 2 firings is somewhat a cause for concern, what is the headspamp of the brass your using? I've seen this if your brass is smaller in the base then your chamber is, usually more a issue on european chamberings and western brass, the 6.5x55 and 6.5x284 come to mind however not so much the 6.5 creed
measure some of your brass, just for comparison this is what you should be finding.....
Base diameter‎: ‎4703 in (11.95 mm) Rim diameter‎: ‎4730 in (12.01 mm)
if your brass is larger I'd be curious, I know savage's 6br norma chamber is quite larger then lapua brass
Base diameter‎: ‎4703 in (11.95 mm) Rim diameter‎: ‎4730 in (12.01 mm)
if your brass is larger I'd be curious, I know savage's 6br norma chamber is quite larger then lapua brass
Apologize about the delay, guys. Life.
New glass.
Im rolling back into this pretty hot and heavy. Still diagnosing the pressure signs at well below book max. Im thinking a tight chamber could be part of the issue.
So, neck turning...
This is my first batch, and I'm not sure I'm even doing it correctly. Hoping you guys will have some constructive criticism.
I bought 200 Lapua brass to play with, but I'm experimenting on some twice fired Hornady before I jump in head first.
Cue the photos.
So, starting as I normally would, I prep the case to its trim length of 1.910"
This has to be done, as the cut into the shoulder needs to index off the case mouth in the neck turner below.
Making headway. Am I cutting deep enough into the shoulder? I kept to the side of caution, but as Ive read a "donut" will form on the inside if not trimmed properly. I haven't researched reaming to any extent. thoughts?
The neck thickness was all over the map coming from factory. Some had chubby sides compared to the other. Measurements typically fell between 0.014-0.017".
As you can see from the photo, I took a deep enough pass to clean up virtually all of the variance, but hesitated to go too deep. Just enough to clean up any high spots. Necks measure 0.012-0.013" after turning.
Here you can see the deepest my redding bushing will form the neck and still remain loose in its pocket for concentric alignment.
Now, for something a little different. Any of you guys tried the molybdenum disulphide coated bullets?
-Blue
New glass.
Im rolling back into this pretty hot and heavy. Still diagnosing the pressure signs at well below book max. Im thinking a tight chamber could be part of the issue.
So, neck turning...
This is my first batch, and I'm not sure I'm even doing it correctly. Hoping you guys will have some constructive criticism.
I bought 200 Lapua brass to play with, but I'm experimenting on some twice fired Hornady before I jump in head first.
Cue the photos.
So, starting as I normally would, I prep the case to its trim length of 1.910"
This has to be done, as the cut into the shoulder needs to index off the case mouth in the neck turner below.
Making headway. Am I cutting deep enough into the shoulder? I kept to the side of caution, but as Ive read a "donut" will form on the inside if not trimmed properly. I haven't researched reaming to any extent. thoughts?
The neck thickness was all over the map coming from factory. Some had chubby sides compared to the other. Measurements typically fell between 0.014-0.017".
As you can see from the photo, I took a deep enough pass to clean up virtually all of the variance, but hesitated to go too deep. Just enough to clean up any high spots. Necks measure 0.012-0.013" after turning.
Here you can see the deepest my redding bushing will form the neck and still remain loose in its pocket for concentric alignment.
Now, for something a little different. Any of you guys tried the molybdenum disulphide coated bullets?
-Blue
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you can turn the neck a little farther into the shoulder, your picture shows a small area of the neck that isn't turned and will still cause zero clearance in the chamber, other then that they look great and you've taken all the proper steps to get them there. As for the bullets, I hate black fingers and so I quit using them, I didn't find any benefit to using coated bullets, however some guys love them
Apologize about the delay, guys. Life.
New glass.
Im rolling back into this pretty hot and heavy. Still diagnosing the pressure signs at well below book max. Im thinking a tight chamber could be part of the issue.
So, neck turning...
This is my first batch, and I'm not sure I'm even doing it correctly. Hoping you guys will have some constructive criticism.
I bought 200 Lapua brass to play with, but I'm experimenting on some twice fired Hornady before I jump in head first.
Cue the photos.
So, starting as I normally would, I prep the case to its trim length of 1.910"
This has to be done, as the cut into the shoulder needs to index off the case mouth in the neck turner below.
Making headway. Am I cutting deep enough into the shoulder? I kept to the side of caution, but as Ive read a "donut" will form on the inside if not trimmed properly. I haven't researched reaming to any extent. thoughts?
The neck thickness was all over the map coming from factory. Some had chubby sides compared to the other. Measurements typically fell between 0.014-0.017".
As you can see from the photo, I took a deep enough pass to clean up virtually all of the variance, but hesitated to go too deep. Just enough to clean up any high spots. Necks measure 0.012-0.013" after turning.
Here you can see the deepest my redding bushing will form the neck and still remain loose in its pocket for concentric alignment.
Now, for something a little different. Any of you guys tried the molybdenum disulphide coated bullets?
-Blue
I see a couple of things, but the most obvious is that the neck length is not the same on every case. Did you full length resize or, at a minimum bump the shoulder back first before trimming to length? If not, the shoulder to base length is varying some thou and that would be the reason that the middle case in the photo is turned further towards the shoulder than the two on either side of it. While the case length might be the same after trimming, the neck length is different. You could and should turn the case right to the junction with the neck, but you MUST have the necks the same length first with this neck turning tool as well as the 21st Century tool. I am unsure of how others index for cut length. If you leave the ridge from the original neck diameter present it may and probably will get jammed into the neck portion of the chamber as it is not getting resized at all, either in this process nor in the subsequent bushing sizing.
Rick, eagle eyes!
I had resized, however after your post, I scrutinized my whole setup again. Turns out, I hadn't tightened the lock ring down on the die and it had walked out some.
I full length resized again through the hole batch this morning, and ran a few through the neck turner. It also occurred to me that I'll need more neck bushings, the 4 I have aren't tight enough for 0.002" neck tension on the bullet.
Do you guys steel wool the necks after turning?
Dave, thanks for chiming in too. Your guys experience has been key in my learning process.
The "black" bullets were right in this rifles wheelhouse as far as weight it seems to prefer. Curious to see if it amounts to any velocity difference. I'm sure its negligible at best if any.
Do they resist copper fouling any? Im sure before I start to put these pills down range, I'll want to do a full clean on the barrel.
Im thinking I need a lab coat.
I had resized, however after your post, I scrutinized my whole setup again. Turns out, I hadn't tightened the lock ring down on the die and it had walked out some.
I full length resized again through the hole batch this morning, and ran a few through the neck turner. It also occurred to me that I'll need more neck bushings, the 4 I have aren't tight enough for 0.002" neck tension on the bullet.
Do you guys steel wool the necks after turning?
Dave, thanks for chiming in too. Your guys experience has been key in my learning process.
The "black" bullets were right in this rifles wheelhouse as far as weight it seems to prefer. Curious to see if it amounts to any velocity difference. I'm sure its negligible at best if any.
Do they resist copper fouling any? Im sure before I start to put these pills down range, I'll want to do a full clean on the barrel.
Im thinking I need a lab coat.
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the second turning looks perfect, and yes I steel wool after turning...actually I use one of those green dish scrubbers.
The Moly's purpose is to reduce friction, but if your barrel is going to strip copper, it's going to strip copper, think of it as putting oil on a wet stone, less friction but you still sharpen your knife......that's my take on it....and we may all not necessarily agree on it, but it does reduce friction, the added cost to this is that cleaning the bore becomes a real chore, patch, brush, patch, brush repeat......repeat.....repeat....repeat....repeat..
The Moly's purpose is to reduce friction, but if your barrel is going to strip copper, it's going to strip copper, think of it as putting oil on a wet stone, less friction but you still sharpen your knife......that's my take on it....and we may all not necessarily agree on it, but it does reduce friction, the added cost to this is that cleaning the bore becomes a real chore, patch, brush, patch, brush repeat......repeat.....repeat....repeat....repeat..
So being that this batch is on hold until I get some tighter bushings, I figured I'd have a good look at the Lapua brass. Im not looking forward to converting everything over to the small rifle primer.
How do you guys feel about the small vs. large rifle primers?
I got 700 BR4 primers for these Lapua brass, purely based on how the BR2's had performed for me. Are small rifle magnum primers a thing? Any benefit if so?
Its more consistent than my freshly neck turned brass. I must have checked the neck thicknesses on 40 between the 2 containers. They barely varied by 0.002", with most hovering around 0.001".
If I lost a Federal, or Hornady case, I would hardly sweat it. I can feel my inner Smiegel kicking in with these Lapua. My precioussssss.
How do you guys feel about the small vs. large rifle primers?
I got 700 BR4 primers for these Lapua brass, purely based on how the BR2's had performed for me. Are small rifle magnum primers a thing? Any benefit if so?
Its more consistent than my freshly neck turned brass. I must have checked the neck thicknesses on 40 between the 2 containers. They barely varied by 0.002", with most hovering around 0.001".
If I lost a Federal, or Hornady case, I would hardly sweat it. I can feel my inner Smiegel kicking in with these Lapua. My precioussssss.
lots of guys with the 6br and 6 dasher are using CCI 450 magnum primers and getting their best results.......so yes, small rifle magnum primers are a thing and do have a place in the accuracy game..
the small rifle brass allows you to push the pressure envelope a little farther without losing primer pockets, which is awesome until you find you get 4 reloads on your brass and then have to retire it, moderate pressures will get you the best brass and barrel length, and it won't give up any accuracy
the small rifle brass allows you to push the pressure envelope a little farther without losing primer pockets, which is awesome until you find you get 4 reloads on your brass and then have to retire it, moderate pressures will get you the best brass and barrel length, and it won't give up any accuracy
Dave, what do you think of this? Ive never experienced it. This was at 40.2 grains. Thats 1.3 grains below book max.
to many reasons for that to narrow it down, I've seen it caused by a heavily fouled barrel, a weak firing pin spring, shallow primer pockets and or primers that were no seated firmly to the primer shelf, oversized flashholes in the brass, much faster lot of powder, shooting reloads that appeared to be in the safe powder charges listed in the manual but using a 30 inch barrel versus the listed 24 inch barrel of the test firearm, bad lot of primers, worn or burred firing pin.............sorry I can't narrow it down......was it a one off? or did you pierce a few in a row?
I've seen someone shoot 3 shots from a cold barrel just fine, multiple times, but when shooting the 4th and 5th there was pressure issues and ugly primers, as your barrel heats up 2 things happen, the bore actually constricts...that barrel metal has to go somewhere when it expands, your chamber gets hotter then the ambient temperature...so you load a round and hold steady on your target, as your waiting your brass and powder absorb the heat of the barrel, your load now becomes much hotter then the 2 before it and even with temperature stable powders your chamber pressures go up..........so I need more of the back story to try and narrow down your issue
Wow. I've got some more reading to do.
This was a total one off. 2nd round in that string of 5.
I dont really have a way to check barrel temp other than skin, but I think I'm going to invest in an infrared thermometer for this. It's really the only way to equalize testing. Totally makes sense about the building pressure while it absorbs heat. Compounded by a constricting chamber, it's not surprising that it found the path of least resistance. Especially considering I thought I might have a tight chamber already.
I'm going to head to the range today, I'll grab a thermometer before I go.
Appreciate the info Dave. You guys have saved me years of trial and error, and information on this thread is fantastic especially for someone like myself who is a reloading greenhorn. I'd buy you a beer, and shake your hand.
This was a total one off. 2nd round in that string of 5.
I dont really have a way to check barrel temp other than skin, but I think I'm going to invest in an infrared thermometer for this. It's really the only way to equalize testing. Totally makes sense about the building pressure while it absorbs heat. Compounded by a constricting chamber, it's not surprising that it found the path of least resistance. Especially considering I thought I might have a tight chamber already.
I'm going to head to the range today, I'll grab a thermometer before I go.
Appreciate the info Dave. You guys have saved me years of trial and error, and information on this thread is fantastic especially for someone like myself who is a reloading greenhorn. I'd buy you a beer, and shake your hand.
