Help me pick a gun/caliber

Dan R

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Hello,

I'm looking for a new rifle. I have a 30-30 that I use for deer, and it is a great gun, but looking for something a little bigger.

Initially, the rifle will be used for deer/bear/moose hunting, would like a caliber capable of taking larger game if I decide in the future. I would like the rifle to have the cabablity of doing some target shooting (out to ranges of ~1000m) with some modifications.

I like the look/durability of stainless, but it is not necessary. Right now I'm thinking Remington 700 or Tikka T3 in .308, any better suggestions (rifle, caliber)?


Thanks.
 
I should add my budget is approx. $1000 for the gun, maybe more for the right one, I will add the scope/rings after.
 
What larger game than a moose? The 308 would do all you require and has been developed to the n'th degree for accuracy in loaded ammunition and reloading development. If serious target work is likely then a rem 700 would be a good choice as there are lots of aftermarket accessories and many gunsmiths have worked on blueprinting them, if not a Tika is a fine factory rifle with an accuracy guarantee.
 
I think a Ruger M-77 in either .308 or .30/06 would cover your needs nicely. Factory options are plentiful with either chambering, and these rifles are durable, accurate, reliable, and most often come out of the box with good triggers. You won't even need to buy scope rings and a good scope can be found in a price range that will keep the budget intact.

Hunting scopes and target scopes fill two distinctly different purposes. The typical big game scope should be small, resistant to bumps and bangs, and not add much to the bulk of the rifle or change it's handling qualities. The hunting scope is most often sighted in to minimize the amount of holdover you might need to use at extended ranges, then never touched again until the rifle needs to be resighted. The typical target scope for 1000 yard shooting needs oodles of vertical adjustment and those adjustments must be accurate and repeatable. These are features that are uncommon in a budget priced scope. While either cartridge is capable of reaching out to 1000 yards, the type of scope you can purchase within your budget is the weak link to long rang shooting. When I started shooting long range, I put an aiming target on a hill high above my impact target and that system worked until such time as I could afford a 20 minute base so that all of the scope's vertical adjustment could be exploited and a scope with 30 minutes of repeatable internal adjustment could be purchased.
 
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I would suggest a 308 as well but since you have a 30-30 let's step away from that power range a little.

Savage 114 Classic in 30-06. Or a Euro Classic. Should be able to get one for about $800

Or if you want a synthetic stock, you can pick up a Savage 111 FNS for about $600 leaving you a few hundred for a scope.
 
Thanks for all the advise.

I looked at the Ruger site, and like the look of the M77 Mark II Target in .308, any comparison to Rem 700 or T3?

For now, the gun will be a hunting rifle, but I just wanted something that I could build in the future to be capable of target shooting, there are no ranges in that distance in the area anyways, it is just something that I would enjoy doing in the distant future.

My dream trip is a grizzly bear hunt in Alaska, however, I realize that there is not a caliber that will do it all, sure a 300 or 7mm would be nice, but there wouldn't be too much left of any whitetail deer (I have seen first hand what happens 300WM), and like the 1000m target shooting, it is a pipe dream for now, just didn't want to close any doors.

I'm not crazy about the 30-06's, seems like a much wider range of available ammo for the .308.

Thanks again for the advise
 
I just wanted something that I could build in the future to be capable of target shooting, there are no ranges in that distance in the area anyways, it is just something that I would enjoy doing in the distant future.
thats a tough one, since if i were looking for a rifle for 1000yd shooting, and a rifle for hunting in the bush, they would be two completely different things.

i would not want a 26" heavy barreled rifle with a 20MOA rail and high powered scope for hunting in the bush, nor would i want to shoot long range with a compact, lightweight bush gun with a low-powered scope and light contour barrel.

not saying one rifle cant do both, but its not going to be ideal for either. decide how likely it is that you are even going to be doing 1000yd shooting, and go from there. if its just something you 'may' decide to try 'sometime in the distant future', then forget it and get a rifle ideally suited to hunting in the bush... and build a second gun later. you will get sick of carrying that 10lb laminate Ruger Target in the bush, i promise you.

you should also look into the Ruger Frontier or Compact for actually carrying in the bush. the .308 Compact is 5 3/4lbs, Laminate is 6lbs.
rugerfrontier.jpg
 
What MBP is saying is correct.....1000 yd target gun OR hunting rifle....you can't have both.

700 Sendero HB, 300 win, 7mm/300 ultra: Excellent 1000 yard gun. Can you hunt it? Sure.....but A: Your scope will be useless as to shoot at 1000 yard you'll need to put a "sloped" scope mount (refered to as a 20MOA rail) on it to be able to keep the target in your scope at that distance, and you will want a high powered scope for that range as well....high power=bad thing for 99% of big game hunting. Add to all this that you are looking at a 12-14lb 26" barreled gun....*shudder*.....not exactly "hunt friendly"

Using a 1000 yard target gun for big game hunting is as practical as using your 30-30 for 1000 yard target shooting. Possible? Yes. Practical? Nope.

About the only suggestion I can give you is to pick up an old school target gun (7.62 sportco would be ideal) and use the irons.
 
Thanks for all the advise.

I looked at the Ruger site, and like the look of the M77 Mark II Target in .308, any comparison to Rem 700 or T3?

For now, the gun will be a hunting rifle, but I just wanted something that I could build in the future to be capable of target shooting, there are no ranges in that distance in the area anyways, it is just something that I would enjoy doing in the distant future.

My dream trip is a grizzly bear hunt in Alaska, however, I realize that there is not a caliber that will do it all, sure a 300 or 7mm would be nice, but there wouldn't be too much left of any whitetail deer (I have seen first hand what happens 300WM), and like the 1000m target shooting, it is a pipe dream for now, just didn't want to close any doors.

I'm not crazy about the 30-06's, seems like a much wider range of available ammo for the .308.

Thanks again for the advise

It sounds to me like you need to organize your priorities. The Alaskan bear rifle it is best addressed by a cartridge larger than .30 caliber, even though the .30/06 has killed the large coastal bears there for generations and most guides prefer to see their clients arrive with a .30/06 they can shoot over a .458 they cannot. The Ruger Alaskan chambered for the .375 Ruger has bear rifle written all over it, and it's terminal performance will out strip any .30 caliber rifle you wish to put it up against. However, this is a handloader's cartridge and due to the light weight of the rifle you should approach full powered loads gradually if you are not yet recoil hardened. All the power in the world won't help you if you can't place it in the kill zone. Performance in the field suggests the various .375 and 9.3 cartridges are closer than the paper ballistics would suggest, and the large case .375s like the .378 Weatherby and the .375 Ultra have an advantage over their smaller cousins only when bullet weight exceeds 300 grs. Yet all of these cartridges have a reputation for being good killers of game from jack rabbit sized antelope with little meat damage thanks to heavy jacketed bullets to the largest and most dangerous land animals on the planet. Few people though attempt to shoot out to 1000 yards with a .375 rifle. The cartridge is capable, but heavy recoil limits ones enthusiasm for regular practice with large round counts, and to get good at long range shooting requires lots of shooting. Then again getting good enough to be competent with a .375 requires a lot of shooting, and learning to tolerate recoil is easier if you begin with a moderate cartridge, say like a .30/06, that can approach the recoil of more powerful rifles when it is loaded with heavy bullets.

The .30/06 is the true do it all cartridge in the North American experience and has been since Stewart Edward White took an early example to Africa and collected every head of game with the 150 gr military bullet loaded to 2700 fps. It trumps the range of factory loads over the .308 and the handloader can increase the gap while spending less money per round than his factory ammo shooter counterpart While both cartridges are tit for tat with bullet weights up to 150 or 165 grs, once you get into 180 gr bullets the '06 begins to pulls out in front, and it will handle bullet weights of 180, 190, 200, 210, 220, up to the 240 grs. The 240 gr Woodleigh, is my bear bullet of choice for the .30/06. This bullet loaded to 2350 in a .30/06 is a hammer. The handloader can make his loads do whatever it is he wants them to do. They can be suitable for plinking and small game hunting, suitable for cast bullet shooting, suitable for match or long range shooting, suitable for hunting ungulates, or suitable for taking large and/or dangerous big game. While my dedicated bear gun is a .375, I never feel unarmed while carrying my .30/06.

For 90% of North American big game hunting the .308 will do nicely. Due to its smaller capacity it is a bit cheaper to load and shoot than the .30/06, typically you need about a pound more powder to load 1000 rounds of .30/06 than you would to load 1000 rounds of .308, while the cost of brass, primers and bullets is equal. If you never need bullets that weigh more than 180 grs you will never recognize or need the advantage the .30/06 has over the .308. Modern bullets and powders available for the .308 provide you with a more powerful rifle in a smaller package than Stweart Edwad White took to African nearly 100 years ago. The availability of monometal bullets like the .308/165 gr TSX reduces the advantage heavier bullets have traditionally had over lighter bullets because a lighter bullet impacting at normal hunting ranges does so at higher velocity, so penetration becomes the equal of the greater mass of the heavier bullet but slower bullet.

If shooting at long range is truly your passion, you should probably begin in a different direction. Getting good at long range shooting can easily become a lifelong obsession requiring the expenditure of thousands of rounds of ammo each year, thus the cost of the rifle becomes secondary to the cost of the ammunition. A target rifle with a fast twist barrel chambered in .223 is the most affordable answer to this question. Mysticplayer has successfully engaged targets with a .223 rifle out to 1 mile! So yes, the .223 can be long range appropriate.
 
300 win mag is your cartridge imo

i would look at the new savage long range hunter, it might actually do everything your asking and stay in your price range....good luck with your choice...

you'll probably want to look at a leupold vx3 or mk4 with 30mm tubes to ensure plenty of moa of adjustment, you'll really want to make sure if you want to dial out to 1000m with 308 or 30-06 to have plenty of adjustment in your scope or have 20moa base installed etc. but i think you'd dial out just fine with 300 win mag and a leupold LR models (30mm tubes/side focus) in 4.5-14 or 6.5-20....possibly even a zeiss rapid z-1000 reticle would work great too, but 300 win mag all the way for what your asking

just checked website, they have suggested retail at $934.00, accustock/accutrigger/26" barrel with brake that you can twist on or off and adjustable cheek piece to get proper scope alignment, all finished matte black and not too heavy a barrel, will see if my copy/paste here turns out



Model: 111 Long Range Hunter
Series: Hunter AccuTrigger: Yes
Sights: Drilled and tapped for scope mounts AccuStock : Yes
Magazine: hinged floorplate Stock material: Synthetic
Barrel material: Carbon Steel Stock finish: Matte
Barrel finish: Matte Stock color: Black
Barrel color: Black Action: Long

Features: Karsten adjustable comb, Adjustable muzzlebrake

Available chamberings:
SKU Caliber: Rate of
Twist: Length*: Weight*: Ammo
Cap.: MSRP**:
Barrel: Overall:
18897 25-06 REM 1 in 10" 26" 47.5" 8.65 lbs 3 $934.00
18896 6.5 x 284 NORMA 1 in 8" 26" 47.5" 8.65 lbs 3 $934.00
18898 7MM REM MAG 1 in 9.5" 26" 47.5" 8.65 lbs 3 $934.00
18899 300 WIN MAG 1 in 10" 26" 47.5" 8.65 lbs 3 $934.00 'Right click' here to download high resolution photo.
 
Browning X-bolt, .308

supposed to be very accurate. (never held one though)
and get a redfield scope or something not to expensive, should fit in your price range.
 
and further to my reply on the savage long range hunter in 300 win mag...i would bet you could find a 180 accubond factory load either winchester or federal (i would check both for accuracy first) that will go sub-moa and they have a great on game track record and decent bc for long range work to keep you hitting hard out there....so not only do i think you can do what your looking for with that rifle but i bet you could do it with factory ammo too, savage has maybe even better accuracy record than sako/tikka for shooting hot dang right out of the box, and thats why i'm such a fan of 300wm for 30 cal and long range work...the gigantic factory ammo selections....

oh, and sticking with leupy 4.5-14x40 LR style with 30mm tube/side focus or zeiss rapid z-1000 with lower magnification in the 4x range you can hunt that no problem for regular closer range work, i've killed running called in coyotes at 70 yrds with 7x and its not that difficult, i can use 4x just fine in fast action close quarters combat with smaller faster critters so you'll be fine for hunting if you can use a scope that lowers down into the 4x range

i do believe i have answered your question perfectly so this thread can be closed now ;) :)
 
I've got the 336 30-30 for the light bush gun if I need it.

You don't understand. A rifle capable of 1000 yd target shooting is NOT going to be a rifle you want to carry any where. 1000 yard target rifles are specialised pieces of equipment that do not make good hunting rifles. As MBP already clearly explained, the optice and mounting system is not compatible between the two.

Your expectations are not realistic. Get yourself a decent hunting rifle in the .270, .280, .308, or 30-06. Learn to shoot it well and do some 300-400 yard target shooting with it. If that appeals to you, spend the money and get yourself a dedicated 1000 yard rifle.
 
WTF guys???

If you want to use it for target then forget this tikka weatherby and ruger stuff - nobody uses that stuff for target. Thats just stuff newbies buy while they are saving up for the right stuff later. Its fine for hunting, but forget it for target later.

If you want to start at $1000 (or less) go with Rem 700 but not stainless. You WILL find with stainless that the bolt lugs will gal instead of wear and then the bolt WILL stick. You are better off with a blued or parkerized version.

Barnard makes a nice action you can get from Roberson composites, but that would take you over $1100

Dont worry about getting some high end version of a rem 700, just get a cheap one. Once you rebarrel it for target the gunsmith will true the action anyway.

Save your money for a good barrel later - it's the heart of the rifle. And after that, maybe upgrade the stock to an AICS or MAK tube.
 
1000 yard target rifles require componenets (and ammo) diametrically opposite to those used in Hunting, so I would ditch that notion. Unless you reload, you are just wanking around at those distances anyway.
 
I agree, dont have your hunting rifle and target rifle the same, you want both, go and get a Rem 700 SPS in 30/06 to hunt with, I have a whack load of guns but when deer and moose hunting out of my stands the SPS is with me, takes a real s**t kicking for the price, and have never had to readjust my sights. As for a target rifle go and get the SPS-varmint in 223. or 308. and build from there over time(ie: stocks, barrel, blueprinting, etc.) and you should be out the door with two guns for around ($1200-$1300, minus optics). You dont want to be lugging a bull barreled rifle around the bush. good luck with your purchase.
 
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