- Location
- In the clock tower!!
Not allowed in BCRA Precision Rifle Tactical matches. Perhaps F Class etc, should do just fine.
Help - My Brain Needs Info
- Thread starter aninchlow
- Start date
Not allowed in BCRA Precision Rifle Tactical matches. Perhaps F Class etc, should do just fine.
260 would be fine in F-Open, but F-(F) is 223 and 308 only. As for its use in competition, it is a good cartridge... no idea why it isn't more popular. I prefer the ultra-accurate and well proven 6 BR and the 6.5X47 variants though...personal taste.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
When building the range, please consider setting it up for longer distances. Having a central 1000m range for F class, BR and palma would be a god send.
The Kamloops F class shoot is usually over subscribed at 30+ shooters and most live in the area. Having a site with longer legs would entice shooters from Western Canada to come up. would be a fantastic way to increase participation from the Coast to Sask (maybe even further). I am sure there would be US shooters willing to come up as they do for Chilliwack.
If I can be of help in the design, please let me know.
The 6.5 is very popular in several forms of LR shooting. However, the popularity still circles around the 6.5-284. A truly excellent LR cartridge but as many shooters are finding, very hard on pipes.
Also, the 139/140gr class bullets tend to like flying around 2900/2950fps best so the extra case capacity really isn't helping much. The 6.5-284 should be able to push these bullets near 3100fps but they don't like going that fast usually. Also, wear would be even worse...
Tactical, F class and BR shooters are finding that the 260R and improved cases can push a 139/140gr class bullet to 2700 to 2900ish fps no problem. That can be within 50fps of what 6.5-284 shooters are doing. Not a huge loss in velocity AND the barrel life is almost double.
I can run my 6.5 Mystic to just under 3000fps but brass life stinks. Ideally for both long brass and barrel life, 139gr Scenars just over 2900fps is happy happy.
Experience in tuning this case is showing how little vertical can be dialed in. I have almost no vertical (1/4min and under) at 300m which is really important the further you go.
You will start to see more and more shooters switch to the 260 and 6.5 Swede case and as more switch, these cases will end up in the winner circle. Then, more will shoot it and so on.
I expect these moderate cases to dominate the 6.5 use in F class. We shoot alot of rds per match. Having a barrel go south around 1000rds is pretty pricey when a competitive F class shooter can fire 3000 to 5000rds per season.
My 6.5 Mystic #1 has digested over 1800rds and is still shooting well enough to hold the X ring at 300m. I just dusted it off and took a few groups at 100yds in gusty conditions.
Trying to watch the flag for similar conditions and holding dead center, 5 rd groups were in the 3's with horizontal spreading. Given the winds and barrel wear, I am very happy with the results. More practise at 300m to start shortly.
Other shooters of the 260improved and 6.5 Swede are reporting 2500rds and still going. I expect 2500 to 3000rds and still holding the X ring (1/2 min) to be the norm. A set back might bring the barrel back to the 1/4 min range for another 1000 to 1500rds.
That is pretty darn good economics with excellent LR ballistics and moderate recoil.
Jerry
Terry Perkins
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Bruce County
6.5x284 Barrel Life
...
...
Terry Perkins
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Bruce County
6.5x284 Barrel Life
My experiences with a 6.5x284 Broughton 5C barrel.
1087 competitive rounds with 16 thou throat growth, then setback.
1018 competitive rounds with 22 thou throat growth, now sitting in the closet.
Just prior to retiring this barrel it put 5 shots into less than 0.4 moa at 100 yards. This is using a tube gun and a Harris bipod with a rear bag.
I use moly bullets only, I try not to rapid fire, and I use H4831. It is considered cooler burning than H4350 which is very popular in this caliber. I have heard that N165 is even cooler, but too difficult (read expensive) for me to obtain.
My experiences with a 6.5x284 Broughton 5C barrel.
1087 competitive rounds with 16 thou throat growth, then setback.
1018 competitive rounds with 22 thou throat growth, now sitting in the closet.
Just prior to retiring this barrel it put 5 shots into less than 0.4 moa at 100 yards. This is using a tube gun and a Harris bipod with a rear bag.
I use moly bullets only, I try not to rapid fire, and I use H4831. It is considered cooler burning than H4350 which is very popular in this caliber. I have heard that N165 is even cooler, but too difficult (read expensive) for me to obtain.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Terry, did you ever try H1000? I use H4831SC in my Mystic and the burn rate is perfect but the 6.5-284 case is a size larger.
The last time I measure the throat (around1500rds), there was no measurable difference in the lands location. I should measure again and see if it has moved.
Shooters using improved 243's are having really long barrel life with H1000. Case volume vs cal is pretty similar to the 6.5-284. H4350 is way too fast for this case volume plus load density must be around 80%.
Maybe H1000 will be cooler still??????
Jerry
The last time I measure the throat (around1500rds), there was no measurable difference in the lands location. I should measure again and see if it has moved.
Shooters using improved 243's are having really long barrel life with H1000. Case volume vs cal is pretty similar to the 6.5-284. H4350 is way too fast for this case volume plus load density must be around 80%.
Maybe H1000 will be cooler still??????
Jerry
Hey guys, again thanks for the info.
Mystic and BC, I'll wait until the rod and gun club gives a bit more info and then I'll get some topo and range design out to you guys if it's ok with the trustee's (which I'm sure it will be). Having the BCRA and a few other associations involved in the design would probably be a great thing. As for length the 1000m as far as I understand it (was just talking to the pres) if the application for the land goes through, all things point to it being a G2G situation the 1000m range = gonna happen, but will take 12 months plus. I asked if we could have a tower to observe from (aka shoot from in sniper) at the zero line, looking at the 300m butts and the answer was along the lines of "if you want to build it......"
Also we will most likely have an indoor pistol range under the club house, which would be just awesome in the winter. The best part is if the land is sold (3.5 mil) and the non-profit rules stick then we have to spend it on something. I hope the club will put 1mil in trust to "live off of" so that our kids kids will have something assured in this sport.
Mystic and BC, I'll wait until the rod and gun club gives a bit more info and then I'll get some topo and range design out to you guys if it's ok with the trustee's (which I'm sure it will be). Having the BCRA and a few other associations involved in the design would probably be a great thing. As for length the 1000m as far as I understand it (was just talking to the pres) if the application for the land goes through, all things point to it being a G2G situation the 1000m range = gonna happen, but will take 12 months plus. I asked if we could have a tower to observe from (aka shoot from in sniper) at the zero line, looking at the 300m butts and the answer was along the lines of "if you want to build it......"
Also we will most likely have an indoor pistol range under the club house, which would be just awesome in the winter. The best part is if the land is sold (3.5 mil) and the non-profit rules stick then we have to spend it on something. I hope the club will put 1mil in trust to "live off of" so that our kids kids will have something assured in this sport.
AS for calibre selection, unless the tactical guys switch to allowing 6.5, I'm going to stay with .308 as it can play the tactical shoot game. There is no doubt that the new 6.5 rounds can shoot better, but it is the practical sniper class that I want to shoot in not the open F-Class
cheers,
cheers,
Terry Perkins
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Bruce County
Maybe in a couple of years, Jerry. For the next while I'm gonna perfect my shooting with a perfect load. I am willing spend a little (in barrels) to chase the Holy Grail of F class competition, and the NSCC of course.
To aninchlow, nothing wrong with the 308 for precision/sniper comps. I recommend the tube gun platform, because it stays on target better for the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc follow-up shots. It rocks less than the regular stock configuration, so adjustments are less.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Terry, good luck with your competition goals. Post your results. Lots of support and ribbing available here 
Just inked up some bullets and stuffed them into the chamber. Amazingly, the bullets are still engraving. The throat has not moved at all in 1800rds. Will have to tweak the loads a bit. Maybe I can bring the groups back down to where they used to be. Saw a bit more vertical then I like.
I wonder if the block is helping to keep the barrel cool below where it wears - cause it should show some wear by now??????
aninchlow, good luck with getting the range approved and pay close attention to the range templates. Get the range kit from your local CFO (?) or Govt cause you want to make sure things are lined up before you start moving dirt.
For F class, BR or whatever, having target pits really makes scoring possible. Can't run matches otherwise. The list of things to consider is long but first is get the land, make sure it has a large enough safety zone and get it approved for 50BMG!!!!!
Or at least up to 50BMG. Do use the angle of offering a range for military and ERT to train on. Where can a Vancouver cop shoot a 338 LM beyond 600yds??????
Yes, get the govt on your side helping you get the range approved. Think Olympics, anti terror, diplomatic ho ha, whatever to get the green light.
Remember, 'this range is helping the govt train their personnel'. Positives, positives, positives.
The rest will work itself out cause there are many on this board who can lend help and support.
Good luck.
Jerry
Just inked up some bullets and stuffed them into the chamber. Amazingly, the bullets are still engraving. The throat has not moved at all in 1800rds. Will have to tweak the loads a bit. Maybe I can bring the groups back down to where they used to be. Saw a bit more vertical then I like.
I wonder if the block is helping to keep the barrel cool below where it wears - cause it should show some wear by now??????
aninchlow, good luck with getting the range approved and pay close attention to the range templates. Get the range kit from your local CFO (?) or Govt cause you want to make sure things are lined up before you start moving dirt.
For F class, BR or whatever, having target pits really makes scoring possible. Can't run matches otherwise. The list of things to consider is long but first is get the land, make sure it has a large enough safety zone and get it approved for 50BMG!!!!!
Or at least up to 50BMG. Do use the angle of offering a range for military and ERT to train on. Where can a Vancouver cop shoot a 338 LM beyond 600yds??????
Yes, get the govt on your side helping you get the range approved. Think Olympics, anti terror, diplomatic ho ha, whatever to get the green light.
Remember, 'this range is helping the govt train their personnel'. Positives, positives, positives.
The rest will work itself out cause there are many on this board who can lend help and support.
Good luck.
Jerry
- Location
- In the clock tower!!
260 should be allowed in the tactical stuff.............
Well, as things stand, its not. In the US, its very popular but BCRA regs keep things to what is currently being used Police/Mil. Hey,,,,, good old 308 goes a long way. Its a good caliber as well.
I don't think 260 should be let in. The whole point is to have a level playing ground with duty rifles, and avoid the arms race. There's plenty of other places it can be used.
If I recall, many US tactical style comps are this way as well, with the last Snipershide cup going so far as to make it 308 only, and only with supplied match 308 ammo (or something like that, I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm off).
If I recall, many US tactical style comps are this way as well, with the last Snipershide cup going so far as to make it 308 only, and only with supplied match 308 ammo (or something like that, I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm off).
- Location
- In the clock tower!!
Don't get me wrong, I love my 308 and would still own it / shoot it regardless. Plus, its a great work horse. What else can you shoot thats a larger caliber rifle cartidge that doesn't cook the barrel in a couple thousand rounds.
I certainly agree that if the regs were changed, it would just become and endless race gun competition, and a lot less about shooting skills.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Many of the sniper shoots in the US are becoming IPSC/3 Gun with camo.
The arms race is on and the latest greatest is being designed and used.
I love the tech and there are always spillovers into every other shooting discipline but what I fear is that shooters drop out due to thinking they can't afford it.
Take on look at the sticker for an AI w/a S&B and one may think this is a rich man's sport.
The idea of mandating a cartridge and possibly ammo IS a positive to keep costs in line.
But until they start restricting to factory rifles (Rems/Savage - not SAKO, AI), costs are going straight up. The fact that you have a wildcat doesn't change the overall cost of the project.
Custom actions, aftermarket stocks, match barrels, top of the line optics, and accessories. Right up there with other target sports for costs. Might even be higher.
The ballistics improve but a good shooter with a 308 will still kick a shooter with a 6 or 6.5 that can't read the conditions or shoot from improvised positions.
However, there will be the trend to lean on equipment to get the job done.
The fact that some of the top shooters are also switching is not helping this situation out at all. They are great shots AND the added ballistic advantage makes it very hard to compete with a 308.
Jerry
The arms race is on and the latest greatest is being designed and used.
I love the tech and there are always spillovers into every other shooting discipline but what I fear is that shooters drop out due to thinking they can't afford it.
Take on look at the sticker for an AI w/a S&B and one may think this is a rich man's sport.
The idea of mandating a cartridge and possibly ammo IS a positive to keep costs in line.
But until they start restricting to factory rifles (Rems/Savage - not SAKO, AI), costs are going straight up. The fact that you have a wildcat doesn't change the overall cost of the project.
Custom actions, aftermarket stocks, match barrels, top of the line optics, and accessories. Right up there with other target sports for costs. Might even be higher.
The ballistics improve but a good shooter with a 308 will still kick a shooter with a 6 or 6.5 that can't read the conditions or shoot from improvised positions.
However, there will be the trend to lean on equipment to get the job done.
The fact that some of the top shooters are also switching is not helping this situation out at all. They are great shots AND the added ballistic advantage makes it very hard to compete with a 308.
Jerry
If money is no object and distance to target is the goal, I would go with .338 Lapua. Advances in high quality optics, rifles, and big bore match ammo far exceed the capablities of a circa 1960's .308 sniper rifle with 700 - 800m consistant accuracy, but be prepared for big $$$.
Bottom line; get best optics and calibre for distance to your target and practice your marksmanship principals.
Bottom line; get best optics and calibre for distance to your target and practice your marksmanship principals.
Sniper / Long Range Rifle Caliber
My choice is a 7mm and probably in 7mm WSM
The reason is simple: the 7mm is the biggest caliber which has a manageable recoil for sustained firing. Secondly, the 7mm 180 grain Berger VLD is the most ballisticaly efficient bullet (BC near 0.7) without being over powered.
I shoot a 7mm STW and get 3050 fps with the 180 gr VLDs (27 ½ inch barrel) but a 7mmWSM will get you near 2900 fps which is still fine for 1000 m (1100 yds) A friend of mine came up with a wildcat based on the 270 WSM necked up to 7mm. Two reasons: 1-he wanted a 7mm and 2-the 270 case gives him .050 extra neck length which is good to hold the extra long 180 VLDs.
If 6.5mm has enough punch for you (sniper rifle) then a 260 Rem is plenty strong. I get 2950 fps from the 139 gr Lapuas in my 30 inch Broughton. I have shot it at 900m with great success. It has a definite advantage on the 308 for wind bucking and flat trajectory.
My choice is a 7mm and probably in 7mm WSM
The reason is simple: the 7mm is the biggest caliber which has a manageable recoil for sustained firing. Secondly, the 7mm 180 grain Berger VLD is the most ballisticaly efficient bullet (BC near 0.7) without being over powered.
I shoot a 7mm STW and get 3050 fps with the 180 gr VLDs (27 ½ inch barrel) but a 7mmWSM will get you near 2900 fps which is still fine for 1000 m (1100 yds) A friend of mine came up with a wildcat based on the 270 WSM necked up to 7mm. Two reasons: 1-he wanted a 7mm and 2-the 270 case gives him .050 extra neck length which is good to hold the extra long 180 VLDs.
If 6.5mm has enough punch for you (sniper rifle) then a 260 Rem is plenty strong. I get 2950 fps from the 139 gr Lapuas in my 30 inch Broughton. I have shot it at 900m with great success. It has a definite advantage on the 308 for wind bucking and flat trajectory.
