Help, need info on 9mm 147grain

Armored Metal

Armored Metal

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Hi guys,
I need help. I work for an armored truck company that is currently in the final phase of choosing a pistol to replace our revolvers. I'm part of the commity that will make the final recomendations and have been, from the start, a strong supporter of the .40 S&W. Things are not gooing my way and it looks like the company will end up addopting a 9mm.

I can live with a 9mm (reluctantly) but I cannot live with the idea that they are strongly interested in the 147 grain load.

From what I know, the police departements in the States are not using this type of bullet anymore because it has failed to do the job in a lot of cases. This load was created to be used in silenced sub-machine gun to eliminate the super-sonic crack and does not perform adequately in a 4" barell.

I need documentation, articles and all the info I can get to build a file against the 9mm 147 grain so I can present it next week.

Can anyone give me web sites adresses for info against this load?

Thanks.
 
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The 9mm hangun was designed for a 115 grain bullet approximately.
Most 9mm hanguns are designed to stabilize a 115 grain bullet.
A 147 grain bullet is too heavy.
The only hangun designed to stabilise a 147 grain 9mm bullet is the 9mm CZ.
A 9mm CZ will shoot a 147g bullet more acurately than any other 9mm handgun.
So if you go with 9mm and 147g I would suggest CZ 9mm handgun.
But for security guard work I would suggest Glock 17 9mm 115 grain.
Why?
You'll probably carry this weapon on your hip for 20 years and never use it, so get the lightest gun so you don't throw your back out. If you do get in a gunfight, just use the Glock 17 for cover fire as you run away. You're not crazy enough to die for someone else money are you?
 
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what do both of you guys base your info on? The 147 gr is the ideal 9mm rd as it will allow it to stay together and penetrate the necessary depth....you need 12-18 penetration. 115's are typically in the 7-9 inch range.

you need to do more wound ballistics research.

Boltgun
 
Boltgun said:
what do both of you guys base your info on? The 147 gr is the ideal 9mm rd as it will allow it to stay together and penetrate the necessary depth....you need 12-18 penetration. 115's are typically in the 7-9 inch range.
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The info I got is from the Marshall/Shanow Handgun stopping Power series of books and from articles in gun magazines over the years, but also from fellow shooters who have read the same things.

I don't pretend to hold the truth, that's why I'm asking for help on the subject. From what I have read over the years, is that the 147gr looks very good during tests (gelatine) but performs poorly on the streets. That's apparently why it's not popular anymore in Amercian Law Enforcement and why 70% of police dept in the USA carry .40's.

My question is only about the 147gr load. We already tested a bunch of guns and our final two choices are the HK P2000 LEM or the Walther P99 QA. The final decision is up to the administration people who sign the checks, not the commity.

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the 9mm, it's a fun caliber to shoot. However, a pistol caliber is inadequate from the start. It's only a last resort weapon and that's why we also have shotguns. Remember the saying "always bring a rifle to a gunfight". What I want, is the best ammo possible if anyone of us has to use his handgun. We are fortunate that no one has been in a firefight for 7 years now. But our competition was not so lucky lately. One of their team was ambushed in St-Sauveur on dec 23 2005, and it ended up in a huge firefight (40 shots fired).

I harass my bosses on a regular basis (in a fun way) asking them when they will allow me to carry my 1911, but that will never happen. The company insists on one gun (company owned) for everybody.
 
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Armored Metal said:
The info I got is from the Marshall/Shanow Handgun stopping Power series of books and from articles in gun magazines over the years, but also from fellow shooters who have read the same things.

I don't pretend to hold the truth, that's why I'm asking for help on the subject. From what I have read over the years, is that the 147gr looks very good during tests (gelatine) but performs poorly on the streets. That's apparently why it's not popular anymore in Amercian Law Enforcement and why 70% of police dept in the USA carry .40's.

My question is only about the 147gr load. We already tested a bunch of guns and our final two choices are the HK P2000 LEM or the Walther P99 QA. The final decision is up to the administration people who sign the checks, not the commity.

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the 9mm, it's a fun caliber to shoot. However, a pistol caliber is inadequate from the start. It's only a last resort weapon and that's why we also have shotguns. Remember the saying "always bring a rifle to a gunfight". What I want, is the best ammo possible if anyone of us has to use his handgun. We are fortunate that no one has been in a firefight for 7 years now. But our competition was not so lucky lately. One of their team was ambushed in St-Sauveur on dec 23 2005, and it ended up in a huge firefight (40 shots fired).

I harass my bosses on a regular basis (in a fun way) asking them when they will allow me to carry my 1911, but that will never happen. The company insists on one gun (company owned) for everybody.
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Ok, I dont want to come across as knowing it all either but you really need to look closer into M&S's research. there is no way to predict %'age 1shot stops as it does not work on wound trauma incapacitation and does include psychological stops.

In other words, M&S said that a round had a higher rating when it had a higher %of 1 shot stops. these included: the guy shot in the leg that gave up, the guy shot in the hand that gave up, the guy that was shot in the chest and gave up....do you see the commonality here? Gave up...the psychological stop....this is a VERY unreliable method to measure a round's effectiveness.

They also did not take into account wound trauma incapacitation - the only real method to guage and predict wounding. Making many large holes in vital areas! That is what stops guys. a moderatly performing bullet will perform when placed in the right area...Shot placement is the only thing that will end the fight.

you will find that your armed guards that qualify 10 times a year will handle the 40 ideally......the ones that qualify 1 time per year will do better with 9mm. A deep penetrating bullet that expands is ideal. 147gr Ranger SXT, 147 gr Golddots, Federal 147gr Tactical (bonded) are excellent rds.

Yes the 147 was originally designed for suppressed MP5's but the trade off was that they perform in handguns too. 115 gr may work for frontals most of the time, but a profile shot in the winter with a parka on will give it a run for the money.

Boltgun
 
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Boltgun said:
...Shot placement is the only thing that will end the fight.

you will find that your armed guards that qualify 10 times a year will handle the 40 ideally......the ones that qualify 1 time per year will do better with 9mm.

Boltgun
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I totally agree with you on that. It doesn't matter if you have a .22 or a .44mag if you don't put you bullets at the right place. Also, the main reason why the 9mm will probably be adopted is because of our female employees that were invited to test the demos we have. The recoil was a bit much for them but I think they were not given enough training or time to master the .40.
 
Boltgun said:
. A deep penetrating bullet that expands is ideal. 147gr Ranger SXT, 147 gr Golddots, Federal 147gr Tactical (bonded) are excellent rds.

Yes the 147 was originally designed for suppressed MP5's but the trade off was that they perform in handguns too. 115 gr may work for frontals most of the time, but a profile shot in the winter with a parka on will give it a run for the money.

Boltgun
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Just to throw my two cents in,....I did some chrony tests of the Winchester ranger and Federal HST, and winchester CMJ all in the 147gr.
If I remember correctly, the Ranger Chrony'd around 136PF, the Federal at 142 pf, and the CMJ at 145 pf . CMJ is a target round which I found ironic that of the three, it was moving the fastest. the Federal was moving around 970 FPS, but the ranger was only moving around 926 fps. These were all fired out of a 4.25 inch polygonal barrel HK USP.
 
Boltgun said:
what do both of you guys base your info on? The 147 gr is the ideal 9mm rd as it will allow it to stay together and penetrate the necessary depth....you need 12-18 penetration. 115's are typically in the 7-9 inch range.
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The 147 does have good penetration ... but only if you hit what you're aiming at ... I assumed that that was the issue ...
Only the CZ has the correct twist to stabilize a 147g 9mm
 
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What is the RCMP shooting in their pistols? I read somewhere that they are using Winchester 127gr.Ranger SXT +P JHP, but I don't know for sure. Personally, I find that 115s and 124s are more accurate from my Sig P226 but that might be just me.

Pat
 
The RCMP, are using 147 gr Winchester Ranger SXT's marked "Law Enforcement Ammunition".

The 9MM will be more than adequate for your defensive purposes. Your company probably will pass as the CZ 75B but it is an outstanding handgun and one of my favourites and would be perfect for your requirements. If you can't pack a 75B on your hip all day you ought to be driving a wheelchair not an armoured car IMHO. NExt I would go for the SIG 226. NO fan of Beretta but it does have a following.

Take Care
 
From the guys I have talked to, Ranger SXTs in 147 and Golden Sabers @ 147 is what most are using. That is what I keep for my zombie medicine....
 
Oh and a huge X2, you should be more concerned with getting your people to work on shot placement. That is more critical for one-shot-stops than 115 vs. 124 vs. 147 gr projectiles.....
 
echo4lima said:
Oh and a huge X2, you should be more concerned with getting your people to work on shot placement. That is more critical for one-shot-stops than 115 vs. 124 vs. 147 gr projectiles.....
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+3

One stop shots are rare with a handgun. Shot placement, muscle memory, point shooting, reliability of your firearm, etc...., are much more important than calibre rating.

there is nothing lacking in 9mm 147gr. Easy enough to shoot, and I believe the 3 largest Law Enforcement agencies in Canada use this round. (RCMP, CSC, DFO)
 
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Vic777 said:
Only the CZ has the correct twist to stabilize a 147g 9mm
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Where on earth are you digging up this garbage? I don't mean to come accross as condescending, but here's a tip: don't spout off info you do not personally know to be correct. Your info is way off. MANY of us here use 147gr 9mm to great effect, I shoot it very accurately out of at least half a dozen different 9mm handguns I own. In fact, 147gr Winchester WinClean is the most accurate 9mm round I've tested out most of my 9mm guns and was the most accurate out of the following over 115 and 124gr; H&K P7M8, H&K P7PSP, Colt Combat Commander, Glock 17, Norinco NP29.

Many of us use 147gr 9mm in competitive shooting too, and it performs ideally with excellent recoil characteristics and accuracy from a variety of firearms.

In the future on the forum, I know I appreciate it when people only state what they know to be fact, not what they heard. :)
 
I have been using 147gr winchester for many rounds thru my HK USP, very accurate. I find the 115gr in AE a little snappy, can't remember how accurate they were, but it did not win me over.
 
It was my understanding that the 9mm handgun was designed for the 124gr bullet. I also just recently read a LEO forum that was linked to here that problems were being found with the new Glock 40cals, the various LEO’s were good with going back to 9mm. The range of ammo available for the 9mm is quite large and a little digging will show which rounds have reliable stopping power. From what I read the 115gr JHP was considered a bit light and some brands the velocity was to great to achieve the correct expansion (direct quote from somewhere) The 124gr JHP’s seem to be preferred as the best compromise between velocity, mass and expansion. As I said read up on what is being offered as all ammo is not equal.

I own a clone of the CZ, I think they are a great pistol, but I find it is difficult to carry out malfunction drills as the slide is comparatively small compared to most handguns. I suggest going with the same brand of handgun that the local LEO’s are using, this helps with cross training, lessons learned and in a nasty situation, you can swap mags with them.

I think the Sigs are a great choice, but so will the Glock G17
 
Ardent said:
Many of us use 147gr 9mm in competitive shooting too, and it performs ideally with excellent recoil characteristics and accuracy from a variety of firearms
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2 shots out of 4 in the A zone at 7 yrds is 1 thing.
try 115g and 147g from ransom rest at 25yds.
 
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twist rate in handguns is not the same as in rifles folks.....9mm will shoot 95-147 equally as accurate for defensive purposes period.....

in regards to stopping power.....now such animal.....only the ability to cause wound trauma. A brick wall with a 200lbs agressive attacker...him running into it...that is stopping power....a 147 gr bullet at 950-1200 FPS doesnt stop anything. Same with knockdown power and muzzle energy...useless measurements in wound ballistics.

Boltgun
 
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