Help, need info on 9mm 147grain

Geez.. Here we go again...

"Let me explain…no, there is too much. Let me sum up.” (Inigo Montoya)

Factory 9mm in 95 grain to 147 are accurate, 158's work but are not as accurate in Many guns (Yes there is a 158 Gr 9mm bullet)

The lighter the bullet the faster the bullet goes... But not necessary more accurate and may or may not be more damaging.. Shot placement is key..

Sorry Vic. But there are plenty of guns that shoot heavy 9mm's and are tested at the factory with them S&W's for example.. They recommend 124's out of the 4" and 147's for the 5"
I believe that the 124 is a more common load.
 
i have tested 115 gr, 124gr and 147gr out of my G17, Beretta 92, P99s, and other 9mms. The most accurate bullet is the 147gr. The most accurate out of my G17 is around 4" @ 25 yards from rest.
 
The 147gr. JHP had early issues with failures as this bullet weight was pushed into service after the infamous Miami shootout, where the FBI adopted the 147gr. over the ill-fated 115gr. Silvertip. Most departments followed suit and started to issue the 147gr. bullets that were originally designed as accurate bullets for suppressed navy guns, on the street these bullets proved to be unreliable preformers, very little expansion, over penetration and poor stoppers.

Those departments that switched to .40S&W sidearms "fixed" many of their percieved problems with the 9mm, which were not problems with the 9mm, but were just problems with the 9mm 147gr. bullet. Since then, alot has changed and ammo development has come along way. Manufacuring processes have allowed that much abused 147gr. weight to now be a reliable, quick expanding, medium penetrating bullet with much better performance on the street. Take alook around at the deparments that still adopt the 9mm, the 147gr. weight is still the preferred weight in law enforcement and to many who carry as part of their duty. Where tactical penetration is needed, engaging soft cover, windshields, or anything else, the 147gr. weight is still preferred and is still the king of the FBI barrier tests. With loads like the Win Ranger "T" series, Speer Gold Dot, Remington Golden Saber (the current RCMP duty round) there is no need to feel undergunned, they all have good track records from the deparments that issue them. Most of the 147gr. bullets travel 980-1000fps and have 300-320fpe. I think that you will find, the more digging you do, those departments that issue the 9mm will also issue 147gr. bullets. For your line of work you will probably want all the penetration you will need, if you are ever in a situation where you will need to use force (may you never be in that situation), there is a good chance you will be engaging some type of soft or light cover, maybe body armour?

My local department issues 9mm and 147gr. weight. RCMP duty round is Rem Golden Saber 147gr., replaced old Win Talon SXT 147gr. There is a case for the other weights, NYPD uses Speer 124gr. +P GDHP and are happy with it, INS/ICE uses Fed 115gr. +P+, but the majority are still using the 147grs. Like I said, they aren't the old crappy performers that you are referring to anymore. If you are issued them, carry them with confidence!
 
9mm. LOADS

HI,
What a load of B.S. going aound, !!!!
9mm not going through greatcoats, I thought that statement died years ago,???
FACT;
Put a 147gr. bullet into a 9mm and you effectively turn it into a .38 special, Which is a wimpy round and is what a lot of amoured guards are using now. So why change,???
If you want to upgrade to 9mm, Use the correct weight bullet(brit.mill. ball and UZI ammo) both use 124gr. bullets. So get a good hollow point in 124 grs and +P+ and the 9mm. WILL perform.
The KID.
 
Vic777 said:
The 147 does have good penetration ... but only if you hit what you're aiming at ... I assumed that that was the issue ...
Only the CZ has the correct twist to stabilize a 147g 9mm
Click to expand...

How much are you selling CZ's for?:rolleyes:
 
Vic777 said:
2 shots out of 4 in the A zone at 7 yrds is 1 thing.
try 115g and 147g from ransom rest at 25yds.
Click to expand...

Nope, I'm talking 3" and less at 25 yards for 5 rounds benched out most of the guns I mentioned with the P7's turning out even better, except the NP29 and Combat Commander which are around 4" at 25 yards, still very good. Again, your info is bizarrely misguided, and sounds like a myth picked up from a poorly educated firearms trainer. :)

Try some 147gr 9mm out of any 9mm, and I bet you will discover it is the most accurate round you try, it typically is. :)

Cheers!
 
Stevo said:
Keep it civil and on-topic please.
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Fair enough. You will find the 9mm and 147-grain bullet used by countless military’s and police forces around the world to much success.

Both 147-grain in FMJ and JHP shoot accurately and are affective if you hit your target.

I have not fired a HK P2000, however it has good reviews and HK has yet to put out a bad product.:D

Walter’s products are hit and miss (P22:redface: ) however the P99 is good, I like it some don’t, it is used by the Montreal police force.

I hope you get the P2000.:)

Remember that no pistol round will defeat modern body armour. Learn and teach your crew mates to shot well so if you have to you can hit the throat, head, or abdomen - or in all three. (Kind of creepy writing that down.) Better yet carry a rifle!

Good luck.


PS. Vic777 PM me those CZ prices.;) :p
 
9x21kid said:
HI,
What a load of B.S. going aound, !!!!
9mm not going through greatcoats, I thought that statement died years ago,???
FACT;
Put a 147gr. bullet into a 9mm and you effectively turn it into a .38 special, Which is a wimpy round and is what a lot of amoured guards are using now. So why change,???
If you want to upgrade to 9mm, Use the correct weight bullet(brit.mill. ball and UZI ammo) both use 124gr. bullets. So get a good hollow point in 124 grs and +P+ and the 9mm. WILL perform.
The KID.
Click to expand...

I guess that since I mentioned parkas this is in connection to that post (unless I am missing a post). So I will qualify what I said.

first thing - a 9mm will penetrate through a great coat without a problem. the problem appears when the bullet has to pass through barriers AND still get through enough tissue/bone to reach a vital organ(s) in order to shut down the threat. Hence 12-18 inches being an ideal penetration depth. The same applies to intermediate bariers like drywall, glass, steel.

second - just because the NATO std is 124 gr does NOT make it the best performing/wounding round. Remember the 124 was selected long before our current selection of ammo was at market. Typically when you push a bullet faster you decrease penetration. So a 124gr std pressure vs a 124gr +P+ will penetrate more. +P+ will give you more blast and recoil and the trade off of performance. Stick with the std pressure rounds, go heavier and get a reliable hollowpoint. ETA: there are however good performing 124's also.

third - yes 9mm is similer to 38. however jacket design improves things significantly. Why switch? cause when someone is trying to kill you a magazine is a WAY easier to reload than a speedloader. The same reason police went to semi's back in the early 90's. That coupled with a higher capacity.

Boltgun
 
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Boltgun is correct. The main reason that semi's replaced revolvers is ammo capacity and easier reloads under stress. I've recently re-hired at Brinks and I'm still carrying a wheel gun with 125+P Gold Dots. Very good bullet. We are told that by the end of 2007 we will be carrying S&W M&P's in .40 cal. Makes no difference to me. If you can hit it, it will get hurt. No matter what you carry. I'm a former range officer with Brinks and I worry more about getting guards to develop good shooting skills and a solid mindset. I always avoided the "my buddy says that .38's are wimpy" conversations with new hires. Being able to hit what you aim at will give you a lot more confidence than carrying any "magnumized" gun/ammo combo.
 
9mm bullets

It would appear that my simple statement did not get through...!!!!
The 147 gr. is NOT the ideal bullet for the 9mm.
My statement although correct was missunderstood,So I wiil try again;
Using a 147gr. bullet in a 9mm. turns it balistically speaking into a .38 special which IS a wimpy round dropped long ago by all police forces in favour of the .357 with a lighter bullet at higher velocities.
It is Velocity that makes the the difference between a.38 special and a .357 mag. Or a .44 special and a .44 mag.
So your idea of using standard velocity 9mm is flawed, Amoured guards using .38 special use +p+ in the duty rounds is an improvement over standard loads but is still less power than a 9mm.
So my statement why switch, Was tongue in cheek, As putting a 147gr. bullet turns it into a inferior .38 special.
So if you switch to 9mm, Use the correct bullet weight of 124gr's and not load 147gr. which was designed for silenced sub-machine guns and has a similar dismal stopping rate as a .38 special when fired out of handguns.
 
I would be curious to see .38 special stop rates with modern 125 gr hollow points. For years cops shot 158 semi wad cutter or round nose, not ideal for anything but targets and small game really. The .38 is not a "wimpy" round, and loaded to potential with modern bullets doesn't really give up much to any auto loader, you just can't stuff 'em full as fast as a bottom feeder. 9mm at +P+ IS an improvment, but they require more training to shoot well.

This is only my opinion of course, I've never had to shoot anyone, never hope to, but I have done alot of reading over the years.


For what it's worth, I don't really like 147 grainers either, to heavy for the caliber. With the 9 you need velocity for hydrostatic effect. 125 is ideal IMHO, though some of the 115's in modern design are intruiging. The old speers used to come apart (FAST!) in anything but these new bonded jackets should really up the effectivness.
 
9x21kid said:
It would appear that my simple statement did not get through...!!!!
The 147 gr. is NOT the ideal bullet for the 9mm.
My statement although correct was missunderstood,So I wiil try again;
Using a 147gr. bullet in a 9mm. turns it balistically speaking into a .38 special which IS a wimpy round dropped long ago by all police forces in favour of the .357 with a lighter bullet at higher velocities.
It is Velocity that makes the the difference between a.38 special and a .357 mag. Or a .44 special and a .44 mag.
So your idea of using standard velocity 9mm is flawed, Amoured guards using .38 special use +p+ in the duty rounds is an improvement over standard loads but is still less power than a 9mm.
So my statement why switch, Was tongue in cheek, As putting a 147gr. bullet turns it into a inferior .38 special.
So if you switch to 9mm, Use the correct bullet weight of 124gr's and not load 147gr. which was designed for silenced sub-machine guns and has a similar dismal stopping rate as a .38 special when fired out of handguns.
Click to expand...

can you please provide links to your source of info or send me a PM with your background info to support this.

Boltgun
 
If the .38 is so wimpy, I wonder why the RCMP's experts used the expansion characteristics of the 158 gr lead SWCHP as a baseline to choose their 9mm projectiles? Every single brand of ammo tested was compared to the 158gr LSWCHP. People that dismiss the old .38 are usually very young or get all their ideas from movie lines and TV.

I've done extensive testing with both calibres. And with comparible bullet weights there is no tangible difference. Just magazine capacity. This includes testing on Kevlar vests, no difference in penetration. Velocity numbers on paper that vary by 100-150 fps are really meaningless IMO. When the speeds vary by 200+ fps then there will be a measurable difference in performance.

Discussions on a bullet's terminal performance amongst people that will never have to worry about shooting someone are fun, but a waste of time.
 
Re-source

QUOTE SOURCE,
Hmmmm, An interesting premise,However I was not quoting a source or pretending to be knowlegeable after reading one book or two books on the subject, As SO CALLED experts are not really.
I speak from experience, I have worked with 9mm for over 20 years,Owned many handguns and carbines and 15 years ago progressed to 9x21.(longer case+faster bullet) and have tried 9x21.5,(.356tsw)9x23,9x25 etc.
I have read every major manual/gun books on the 9mm, And even had three different 9mm revolvers. I have read up on all ballistics,powders, bullets and various experts opinion on what works and read statistics on ACTUAL shootings and what calibers work.
Based on that KNOWLEDGE I can make an educated statement not GUESS or Quote something I read in a magazine.
Why do think the .357 SIG round is popular with various U.S. police depts.,???
It necks down a .40 cal. case to 9mm to push the bullet out at HIGH VELOCITY . This giving the autoloader similar ballistics to a .357, Which also pushes a similar diameter bullet at high velocities, Which is what the .357SIG was designed to equal.
If you insist on a slow moving projectile,Then at least increase your diameter to .44 spl. or .45 in order to achieve better stopping power. And Yes, Modern bullet designs and dropping the bullet wieght down to 120/125 grs. Does improve the .38 spl But not to the point of bieng really effective. I have had a concealed carry permit in the U.S. FOR OVER 12 YEARS and down there the .38 is only used for a women's learning/starter gun. Most people use major calibers for back up guns,9mm,40,.45,.357 sig,
.357 mag. etc. So do your research,Get experience on the caliber and then maybe you can be in a position to advise newcomers to the sport.
THE KID.
 
I am not an expert, BUT:

With an equal weight bullet, but a different lenght casing, powder load and barrel config, therefore speed, wouldn't that make a totally different round effect wise ?

I would think so.

KPA
 
9x21kid said:
QUOTE SOURCE,
Hmmmm, An interesting premise,However I was not quoting a source or pretending to be knowlegeable after reading one book or two books on the subject, As SO CALLED experts are not really.
I speak from experience, I have worked with 9mm for over 20 years,Owned many handguns and carbines and 15 years ago progressed to 9x21.(longer case+faster bullet) and have tried 9x21.5,(.356tsw)9x23,9x25 etc.
I have read every major manual/gun books on the 9mm, And even had three different 9mm revolvers. I have read up on all ballistics,powders, bullets and various experts opinion on what works and read statistics on ACTUAL shootings and what calibers work.
Based on that KNOWLEDGE I can make an educated statement not GUESS or Quote something I read in a magazine.
Why do think the .357 SIG round is popular with various U.S. police depts.,???
It necks down a .40 cal. case to 9mm to push the bullet out at HIGH VELOCITY . This giving the autoloader similar ballistics to a .357, Which also pushes a similar diameter bullet at high velocities, Which is what the .357SIG was designed to equal.
If you insist on a slow moving projectile,Then at least increase your diameter to .44 spl. or .45 in order to achieve better stopping power. And Yes, Modern bullet designs and dropping the bullet wieght down to 120/125 grs. Does improve the .38 spl But not to the point of bieng really effective. I have had a concealed carry permit in the U.S. FOR OVER 12 YEARS and down there the .38 is only used for a women's learning/starter gun. Most people use major calibers for back up guns,9mm,40,.45,.357 sig,
.357 mag. etc. So do your research,Get experience on the caliber and then maybe you can be in a position to advise newcomers to the sport.
THE KID.
Click to expand...


:confused: ... I thought you were going to say you've stopped that wimpy .38 special with you teeth! :eek: And you call yourself a man.:redface::rolleyes:
 
9x21kid said:
QUOTE SOURCE,
Hmmmm, An interesting premise,However I was not quoting a source or pretending to be knowlegeable after reading one book or two books on the subject, As SO CALLED experts are not really.
I speak from experience, I have worked with 9mm for over 20 years,Owned many handguns and carbines and 15 years ago progressed to 9x21.(longer case+faster bullet) and have tried 9x21.5,(.356tsw)9x23,9x25 etc.
I have read every major manual/gun books on the 9mm, And even had three different 9mm revolvers. I have read up on all ballistics,powders, bullets and various experts opinion on what works and read statistics on ACTUAL shootings and what calibers work.
Based on that KNOWLEDGE I can make an educated statement not GUESS or Quote something I read in a magazine.
Why do think the .357 SIG round is popular with various U.S. police depts.,???
It necks down a .40 cal. case to 9mm to push the bullet out at HIGH VELOCITY . This giving the autoloader similar ballistics to a .357, Which also pushes a similar diameter bullet at high velocities, Which is what the .357SIG was designed to equal.
If you insist on a slow moving projectile,Then at least increase your diameter to .44 spl. or .45 in order to achieve better stopping power. And Yes, Modern bullet designs and dropping the bullet wieght down to 120/125 grs. Does improve the .38 spl But not to the point of bieng really effective. I have had a concealed carry permit in the U.S. FOR OVER 12 YEARS and down there the .38 is only used for a women's learning/starter gun. Most people use major calibers for back up guns,9mm,40,.45,.357 sig,
.357 mag. etc. So do your research,Get experience on the caliber and then maybe you can be in a position to advise newcomers to the sport.
THE KID.
Click to expand...

Sorry work go tin the way and this is the first chance I have had to contribute to this. There is a little more to this than reading books obviously. Have you done calibrated gellatin testing on this?

357 sig isn't as popular as one might think when compared to 40 or 9mm. I am not suggesting that 124 isn't suitable. What I am saying is that if you take an equal bullet and slow it down it will have a tendancy to penetrate more. I would agree that bigger is always better provided the shooter can shoot the caliber effectively on a regular basis.

I too have had extensive experience with 9mm (since the mid 80's from pistols, SMG's and carbines) and also had a CCW (although expired now) in the US. this experience means nothing in the realm of wound ballistics though. Nor does anecdotal evidence based on shootings that are not fully qualified with their results (M&S).

what does matter is the opinions of trauma surgeons, pathologists and those who have dedicated a significant amount of time to the study of wounding (I do not purport to be any of these but have significantly dabbled in the study).

If anyone is serious about wound ballistics then I would suggest that this book would be the beginning of the knowledge quest http://pw2.netcom.com/~dmacp/index.html. The information there is factual, repeatable and supported by the most respected people in that area of study.

About the effectiveness of the 38, I have seen real shooting victims that have been shot with 38, 22, 9mm, 45. I can say that the 38 is not a slouch that people say it is provided it is factory loaded. I can also say that Dr. Fackler once argued that one of the best revolver rounds was the 38 full wadcutter as it guaranteed a very good permanent wound cavity. So we can all find our favourite cases/stories/lore about the best round but the end result is "is it capable of performing" in the best tests available to ballisticians that will indicate what will do in real life.

Boltgun
 
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