Help, need info on 9mm 147grain

9mm will mess any human being up FUBAR. I have seen the results of a very muscle bound weightlifting ex- con. He was shot 3 times by 147gr rounds. One entered his stomach and spread out in pieces. The 2nd round entered his right arm and shattered it. The 3rd round messed up his left arm and messed that up as well.
The only reason he is alive is because of the extra layer of muscle and the EMT and doctors. His arm is ####ed up for life. I believe after a year he didn't have to #### out of a bag. The stomach round was enough to incapacitate him; the other rounds were all fired in the same time frame. Lesson; shot placement. A .38 would have had similiar results I believe.
 
Dr Fackler

Thanks for your input Boltgun,
My friend and pistolsmith JOHN LAWSON(used to write as the PISTOLSMITH in AMERICAN HANDGUNNER) and lives in Tacoma,WA.
He had COL/DR. FACKLER visit him a couple of years back and they Discussed ballistics/wounds/stopping power etc.
And agreed the .38spl with bullet wieght of 170grs, A hard cast wadcutter bullet(the hard lead used in heavy large caliber hunting bullets, Not the lead bullets they usually sell for reloading) and a compressed load.(as much powder as you can get in the case).
This goes back to the days of HOTRODDING done by Evan Marshall and Elmer Kieth on the .38spl. Who where loading up to .357mag. performance and writing in the gun-mags of thier experience.
Remington ammunition and S&W, Plus a bunch of liability lawyers got into the act, Concerned that people would blow up some of the older guns in .38.spl.
As J & K sized frames as well as cheap low quality imports where around.
So the .357 mag was born, Not because it was a great design or invention,
It was purely A LIABILTY MEASURE, ENSURING THE HOT .357 MAGS would not chamber in the .38 spl. revolvers ,(due to a longer case) And people would stop hot-rodding the .38.
Of course these yesteryear pioneers where not silly, They used N frame S&W,s Had there been no lawyers, There would not have been a .357 mag.
As they where getting good ballistics and accuracy, The .38 spl having been a target round for many years, Was plenty accurate, It just needed to pushed.
9X21 KID.
 
9mm is good round better than .38 by far IMO...

originally it was designed to use 124gr bullet, but 147gr will still go faster than 230gr .45acp ;) in fact some of the best ammo in 9mm is in 147gr.
 
This debate is big in my line of work as I am a RCMP officer. When we switched from the 38 special to the 9 mm, I was happy, just because of what was said before - they are much easier to load when the pucker facter is calculated into the equation. The 38 specials we used were 158 +p lead hollowpoints. Not bad if you hit a soft target, but because the bullet wasn't jacketed, the penetration was very poor. More often then not, it wouldn't go through a car door. The 9mm 147 grain hollowpoint, in my opinion is not a "bad" bullet for this caliber per say as it is very, very accurate out of our Smith and Wessons. I have had to use this round to put down countless deer, horses, etc. that were hit on the highway, and it usually does the job satisfactorily. I would personally choose Winchester's 127+p+, but we don't have a choice. We recently switched to Remington 147 grain Golden Sabre - not because it is better than Winchester's SXT, but because it was the lowest government contract bidder. I think it is a good round, but has much more muzzle flash than the Winchester. That is a bad thing at night. There are two lessons I have learned in carrying a 9mm handgun. Because the 147 round is not particularly potent, it should only be used to fight your way back to your car to get your shotgun. I teach this when I train new members. Secondly, you better be a marksman as any handgun round is only as good as the location it hits, ie: centre of mass. The 147 grain load basically duplicates the 38 special performance with more reliable penetration - as it does penetrate. It also opens much wider than the 38, thus makes a bigger hole.
 
I certainly agree with Ceska, this has been a great discussion by many qualified and experienced individuals all presenting valid issues.........Just goes to show why the arms and munitions topic, and Gunnutz is so interesting!

That .38 Special wadcutter benchmark round was so effective beyond its paper stats because the hard wadcutters had a high energy transfer into the target; they didn't have a lot of energy to start with, but they RELIABLY transfered it into the target (the paper punch concept works every time). Round noses poke subcaliber holes, and hollow points can be very unreliable to expand like their supposed to.
 
I was at a presentation by a trauma surgeon from toronto on behalf of the OPP's tactical team. His belief was that hydrostatic shock from most any handgun round used for defense is immaterial. They simply do not have enough velocity to create a viable permanent wound channel (whereas with rifle rounds it is critical),and the temporary stretch cavity has little value. What matters for handgun rounds is depth of penetration and how much tissue is severed (ie calibre). You get a large hole which cuts tissue and severs arteries by virtue of an initially large calibre, or by virtue of expansion. If you penetrate more, you cut more tissue. Having the round stay in the body is advantageous as the liability of hitting something beyond your target goes down but the value of the much touted "energy dump" in corporeal bullet retention is questionable.
In the end, penetration and expansion are the important elements and as long as these factors are met, the weight of the bullet is immaterial. Strike a balance - and these can all be met with 115gr to 147gr bullets. Incidentally the OPP uses 147gr ranger sxt's.
 
lookout said:
c'mon somebody say something this is interesting....
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ok..because it wasnt said yet:eek: buy a 45acp then you wont have to worry, you can shoot em in the fingernail and they will go down and stay down :D :dancingbanana:
 
Armored Metal said:
We already tested a bunch of guns and our final two choices are the HK P2000 LEM or the Walther P99 QA. The final decision is up to the administration people who sign the checks, not the commity.
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I can't believe in four pages no one has commented on the two POS guns that have made the short list?

Forget the 9mm arguement, you should be concentrating on fighting for a better pistol.

P99??? Seriously, W.T.F.?
 
not to bash the 9mm but i think 40 S&W in a glock platform would be the best for the job i mean LEO's carry them it seems natural and almost a industry standard i'm sure alot of shooters would prefer the 45 acp(i would to but i just can't see that happening
 
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