Help please, need some AR-15 advice

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IMR4320

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So after many years and owning many rifles I finally decided to get an AR. I started looking, for safety reasons eliminated Norc. ( not interested of dealing with possible hit/miss quality ) and also found they function on two a bit different systems, gas piston and direct gas impingement. Could someone please explain to me the pros/cons of these two systems and how they perform in the real world, not necessarily on paper or parked in the safe ? Also, what brands should I stay away from and magazines to stay away from. There's gotta be good stuff on the market as well as junk.
Thanks for any info
 
I use a norc thats had the bcg and barrel upgraded. Now has a 16"bmc barrel instead of the 14.5" from factory and a nea bcg. Even before i upgraded that stuff i never had a problem with the gun itself. Just with cheap lar mags jamming it up. But had i been able to afford it, i would have went with a NR variant. But at $3000 for a nr or even a restricted version i would rather buy a norc and put a few hundred into it or buy a csa vz 58 223 and do a little tinkering to make it work right. Most of these ar guns out now cost as much as my car. Sorry but i dont know how people can afford $1500 plus for a plinking gun. I spend that much per year on insurance for my car.
 
IMR4320 said:
So after many years and owning many rifles I finally decided to get an AR. I started looking, for safety reasons eliminated Norc. ( not interested of dealing with possible hit/miss quality ) and also found they function on two a bit different systems, gas piston and direct gas impingement. Could someone please explain to me the pros/cons of these two systems and how they perform in the real world, not necessarily on paper or parked in the safe ? Also, what brands should I stay away from and magazines to stay away from. There's gotta be good stuff on the market as well as junk.
Thanks for any info
Click to expand...

Others can add, but I never read any concrete evidence to say that impingment or piston was better. Someone could post that scientific, non-opinion based article I haven't read. If you are the "gun must be spotless" type then the piston is cleaner in the action and carrier area. However, the piston is more parts that can get jammed up, gummed up and possibly cause a problem: although if you are the "gun must be spotless" type than this isn't a problem.

Keep an eye on the LAR magazines threads here if you want any 10 round magazines: some work and some don't.

I personally find almost all NcStar products for the AR platform are so cheap that a normal AR can destroy one within 100 rounds. That's my opinin after being stupid enough to buy 6 totally different NcStar products and have to throw all of them in the garbage: mostly thin bolts, weak metals and cheap glass...
 
I've just been running a Norc 10.5" with a few upgrades like extractor. It has run flawless for the past year and never jammed or let me down. Like Sandwman27 above, I put the extra money into ammo and other hobbies.

I do really like the looks of that Ruger SR556 though
 
Since the hot gas is redirected to back into the BCG, the DI system heats up way faster than a piston system, however in semi auto overheating is not an issue at all. The only difference is piston BCG doesn't get as dirty.
My only advise is set a budget first and buy whatever is closest to that.
Don't buy into that Norinco is inferior BS, you will be hard press to find anything about Norinco AR catastrophic failure on the internet, even on YouTube.
 
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_8_35/453290_Gas_Piston_vs_Direct_Impingement.html

There's lots and lots of information, hissy fits, and drama about pistons vs DI over on AR15.com

In the real world, on a DI system(or whatever it is since apparently it's not actually direct impingment) the gasses travel through the gas port and gas tube and press against the gas key and that pushes the bolt carrier rearward.

On a piston gun the gasses travel through the gas port and presses against the piston which in turn presses against the gas key and that pushes the bolt carrier rearward. Compared to a DI gun, this will supposedly keep the bolt carrier cleaner and cooler. However, that fouling and that heat comes from your ammo, so if you're using the same ammo you're going to get the same fouling it is just going to be in different spots with a piston gun. Compare the boots worn by an infantryman and a pilot, the pilot's boots are going to stay cleaner, but that doesn't change the fact that the ground is dirty, and it doesn't mean the pilot's boots are somehow better.

To my mind any test of a piston gun vs DI gun that only looks at the bolt carrier is inherently flawed. If the test of a piston gun does not inspect the piston as part of the test it is an incomplete test.

The way I personally understand it, which may be flawed, is that pistons are best for supressed rifles, and maybe for underwater shooting. Which means that essentially for us the difference is marginal at best and largely dependent on other factors such as overall manufacturer quality control and assembly quality control. Supposedly piston guns also tend to be a little heavier due to the weight of the piston and tube. I've held both and couldn't tell the difference, but that's just at the gun counter, maybe I'd change my opinion if I had to carry it for a few hours.

Last I checked, guys like Kevin B, who works for Knights Armament, say that the only piston AR worth getting is the HK416. When a company repesentative recommends a rival's product over their own that means something to me.


Ultimately, a gun just being DI does not make it inherently any better or worse than a gun that is piston.
 
IMR4320 said:
So after many years and owning many rifles I finally decided to get an AR. I started looking, for safety reasons eliminated Norc. ( not interested of dealing with possible hit/miss quality ) and also found they function on two a bit different systems, gas piston and direct gas impingement. Could someone please explain to me the pros/cons of these two systems and how they perform in the real world, not necessarily on paper or parked in the safe ? Also, what brands should I stay away from and magazines to stay away from. There's gotta be good stuff on the market as well as junk.
Thanks for any info
Click to expand...

Not sure what your basis is for eliminating the Norc for safety reasons, they are great AR's, especially if it's your first AR to learn on. No safety issues I've ever heard of, and I'm at 1700ish rounds through mine now without a single hiccup of any kind, shooting both brass and steel case. Maybe not as nicely finished as more expensive AR's, but certainly not unsafe.

From what I've read there is no big advantage to piston over DI. A piston will help keep the BCG cleaner and cooler during rapid firing, but I think you would only really notice if you shoot a lot of full auto. My only experience is with DI guns from the army and my current AR, so it's all I know and it's what I'll stick with. I don't have any real world experience to say if the piston is better or not, but I'm inclined to think it's not worth the extra money.

All the mags I have work well, (D&H aluminum mags, USGI mags, P-mags, LAR mags). I have heard of some LAR's jamming up though, so maybe keep that in mind.
 
Not many people have anything bad to say about Norinco AR's after owning one, but if that's not your thing, there are a ton of AR's in the $1000 range now to suit your fancy. NEA also makes good products, but there are a ton of haters on here.

If you absolutely must have the best, then look at KAC or similar. I've never shot them, $2500 for a restricted rifle made no sense to me.

As for mags, PMAGS are excellent quality and cheap, but only 5 rounds. LAR 15 mags are 10 rounds, I own ten of them and have no issues, but some people report problems. There are also the .50 beowulf AR mags now that are legally permitted to shoot 15-17 rounds of .223, but will cost you at least $50 per mag. I haven't heard of any quality issues, but they are fairly new to the market.
 
Good info so far.

The piston system does offer some reliability advantages. Mostly for very short barrels and supressed along with the other advantages mentioned. But.... There is a cost. You lose out in acuracy potential. Most piston rifles will upgrade the barrel to heavier, SS match or higher quality chrome line to compensate for this. This allows the piston AR to shoot very well. However throw that same barrel on a DI AR and it will shoot exceptionally well.

There is also a hybrid system. ADCOR uses a DI off the barrel to a long stroke piston held in the free float handguard. This gives piston advantages with DI accuracy.

As for the HK, SIG and PWS piston rifles they are very nice. However I prefer DI and it's my personal belief the ADCOR is a far smarter design. The ADCOR is the only piston system I have bothered with. Generally I consider a piston system on an AR as pointless and robbing the AR of it's strong points. Especially for a regular length non full auto non supressed system.

As for mags. Tons of choices. I like D&H as my standard. Good quality, work great and they were a god price. Magpul are a favourite by most as well. Of course you need some 10 rounders or higher. Once the Pmag gen3 mags prices come down to gen2 pre US craziness I'll pick some up.
 
Should add that I've fired a Norc AR15. No reliability issues and considering how many are out there there doesn't seem to be any indication of reliability issues as a general product.

Also the barrel is hammer forged. When free floated and using good ammo I've seen the Norc shoot very well. You wouldn't be at an accuracy disadvantage compared to high end AR rifles with CL barrels.

The fit/finish is weak compared to more expensive US AR rifles. I personally would spend more for a better fit and finish US AR. But the Norc offers the cheapest entry and actually provides a lot of bang for the buck. I would recommend this if that's what you're looking for or paying more for an American AR.
 
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