Help select 5.56 semi under $2k
- Thread starter EXPAT556
- Start date
SU16FA
I'm here to cook my own crow dinner.
First time out (noted above) on Friday with the SU16FA was a disaster.
Went out today, same conditions (temp/wind/doesn't matter), same ammo (cheap Fed .223), same mags, same everything:
Didn't clean it from Friday.
Put 400 rnds through it today, and it had ZERO malfunctions. No stovepipes, no double feeds, etc, like I had on Friday. ZERO issues!
I was able to clock in a red dot, was getting less than 2 moa at 100 yards. (It was windy, my eyes tear up in the wind).
It went from a POS on Friday to being an absolute pleasure to shoot today.
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HyeProfile
Member
- Location
- Montreal, Canada
I've also been doing my research to buy a non-restricted semi-auto for hunting, although I'm not just looking at 5.56NATO/.223REM, I'm also pretty open to 7.62×39 Soviet or even 7.62×51NATO/.308WIN since the latter is my bread and butter for my bolt guns and it would simplify logistics (I don't plan on carrying 210 rounds when I go hunting, although one could argue the number of rabbits it becoming troublesome in these parts).
To answer your question completely (and at the same time help all the newbies out there), here's my thorough list of sub $2K (or close) non-restricted semi-auto rifles in 5.56NATO/.223REM and even .223 Wylde. FAIR WARNING : based on descriptions in the FRT, most of these appear to meet the definition in amendment G4 of Bill C-21 so most of these might get banned soon unless someone reasonable gets elected PM). I've listen them from cheapest to most expensive, so folks chime in if I'm wrong on the pros/cons and I'll edit this post and correct:
* Kel-Tec SU-16E (~$1,100).Pros: very inexpensive, takes AR mags, AR-style buffer tube/buttstock,conventional long-stroke gas-piston and utilizes the proven Johnson/Stoner breech locking system. Cons: not very ambidextrous (while the push bolt safety can be changed to work from either side, the reciprocating bolt handle and magazine catch are on the right side), reciprocating bolt handle. Except for barrel and operating components, the SU-16F is made entirely of high-impact reinforced polymer. Fixed Low-Profile Front on Gas Block, Flat Top Rail. A railed forend replaces the polymer handguard for attachments of foregrips and other accessories.
* Norinco Type 97 (or T97) Gen 3 (~$1,300 if you can get one). Pros: very inexpensive, decent reliability, decent accuracy, compact, ambidextrous mag release, non reciprocating reversible side charging handle. Cons: weight (8.6lbs, to me anything above 7.5lbs is too heavy), some people don't like the ergonomics (but to quote Tyler: "most people who don't like the ergo's wouldn't like bullpups anyway"). You can't ignore that it's the civilian version of the T95/QBZ-95 made by Norinco and chambered in 5.8×42mm/DBP87 for the use of chinese army, so it's no toy, but to get it working properly for running and gunning, you're gonna have to get your metal file out and you're gonna have to know what you're doing.
* Kodiak Defence WK180C Gen2 (~$1,450). Gen 2 introduced in 2022. Pros: inexpensive, decent accuracy, decent weight, takes AR mags, has lots of other perks that runners and gunners are looking for (long lightweight handguard has plenty of M-LOK on side and bottom, non-reciprocating charging handle, external bolt catch, AR-style cross-pins & safety selector). Cons: not the most compact, durablility is a question mark (6061-T6 upper & lower receiver, compared to the better 7075-T6 on the Raven), although it uses a short-stroke gas system reliability is not great when out of the factory (They say it's a fixer upper. I've heard that Kodiak's break in procedure are awful but after you get that out of the way the guy runs flawlessly. True North sells parts to improve reliability tho.).
* Kel-Tec Rifle Downward-ejecting Bullpup (RDB) (~$1,600). Pros: relatively inexpensive, decent accuracy, decent weight (7lbs empty), compact, completely ambidextrous, takes AR mags. Cons: some people don't like the ergonomics (bullpup), reciprocating charging handle, reliability varies (lots of stovepipes and double-feeds reported when gun is new, but apparently it settles in OK if you can work through the issues), and I hear manufacturer warranty is hard to follow-up on.
* Black Creek Labs SRV2 Siberian (~$1,700). Pros: pretty inexpensive for a BCL product, good accuracy (it's the only one on here chambered in 223 Wylde so it can shoot .223REM accurately while still shooting the faster 5.56NATO no problemo), low weight (it's listed as 6.9lbs empty on some sites, but BCL spec sheet says 7.4lbs for the 18.6" barrel non-restricted version), relatively compact for a typical semi-auto layout (packs down to 29″ long with the Zhukov stock folded for CQB use, so you can get it to be shorter than the 30" of the T97 or RDB bullpups but you won't be able to nestle into your shoulder so it won't be as accurate. 36.50”-39.00” OAL with the stock fully collapsed or fully extended), durable (4150 Chrome Moly button rifled barrel, built-in QD points with steel inserts instead of aluminum), pretty ambidextrous (ambi safety, BCL’s standard mag and right-side bolt release buttons to boot), takes AR mags, has lots of other perks that runners and gunners are looking for (15" long free-floating handguard has plenty of M-LOK on side and bottom, milspec removable trigger guard for shooting in the winter with thick gloves), manufacturer warranty. Cons: reliability varies (but BCL stands behind its products).
* Crusader Arms Templar Gen 2 (~$2,000 with milspec trigger, ~$2,250 with Trigger Tech trigger). Pretty similar to the Raven, but upper and lower receiver is 6061-T6 not 7075-T6 aluminum, but with an ACR-style collapsible stock instead of the Raven's Zhukov collapsible stock. Manufacturer warranty seems good as well.
* Lockhart Tactical Raven in 5.56NATO/.223REM(~$2,050). Pros: good reliability and accuracy when tuned (DI system is tunable from the factory, 316 Stainless Steel bolt-carrier coated with a DLC (Diamond Like Carbon) coating, match grade 416R stainless steel 5R button rifled barrel), low weight (6.8lbs), very compact (Packs down to 26" long with Zhukov stock folded, OAL is 37” stock fully extended, 34” stock fully collapsed), durable (upper & lower receiver are 7075-T6 aluminum and not just 6061-T6 like others), Platinum model is completely ambidextrous (lefties should avoid the Gold model which isn't ambi), takes AR mags, has lots of other perks that runners and gunners are looking for (long lightweight handguard has plenty of M-LOK on side and bottom, top and /or side [ambi] charging handle options out of the factory, AR-style buffer tube/buttstock/trigger group/extractor claw, last-round bolt hold open, tool-less takedown), manufacturer warranty. Cons: some people say the handguard wiggles a bit (apparently it's normal due to the ability to remove the handguard without tools), and while it has many QD points the ones in the handrail are all in 6061-T6 aluminum so longevity is a question mark.
* Heckler & Koch SL8 Variant (~$2,200, if you can find one). Pros: well known for simplicity and reliability (uses a proven short stroke, piston-actuated gas operating system, based on the combat-proven G36 rifle used by the German Army), manufacturer warranty. Cons: heavy (9.2lbs empty!!!), durability is a question mark (constructed almost entirely of a reinforced carbon-fiber polymer so things might loosen up as you put rounds down range, and some people are saying it feels like a toy), and the non-restricted version sold in Canada is (AFAIK) limited to .223REM so it might not be able to shoot the faster 5.56NATO cartridges.
To answer your question completely (and at the same time help all the newbies out there), here's my thorough list of sub $2K (or close) non-restricted semi-auto rifles in 5.56NATO/.223REM and even .223 Wylde. FAIR WARNING : based on descriptions in the FRT, most of these appear to meet the definition in amendment G4 of Bill C-21 so most of these might get banned soon unless someone reasonable gets elected PM). I've listen them from cheapest to most expensive, so folks chime in if I'm wrong on the pros/cons and I'll edit this post and correct:
* Kel-Tec SU-16E (~$1,100).Pros: very inexpensive, takes AR mags, AR-style buffer tube/buttstock,conventional long-stroke gas-piston and utilizes the proven Johnson/Stoner breech locking system. Cons: not very ambidextrous (while the push bolt safety can be changed to work from either side, the reciprocating bolt handle and magazine catch are on the right side), reciprocating bolt handle. Except for barrel and operating components, the SU-16F is made entirely of high-impact reinforced polymer. Fixed Low-Profile Front on Gas Block, Flat Top Rail. A railed forend replaces the polymer handguard for attachments of foregrips and other accessories.
* Norinco Type 97 (or T97) Gen 3 (~$1,300 if you can get one). Pros: very inexpensive, decent reliability, decent accuracy, compact, ambidextrous mag release, non reciprocating reversible side charging handle. Cons: weight (8.6lbs, to me anything above 7.5lbs is too heavy), some people don't like the ergonomics (but to quote Tyler: "most people who don't like the ergo's wouldn't like bullpups anyway"). You can't ignore that it's the civilian version of the T95/QBZ-95 made by Norinco and chambered in 5.8×42mm/DBP87 for the use of chinese army, so it's no toy, but to get it working properly for running and gunning, you're gonna have to get your metal file out and you're gonna have to know what you're doing.
* Kodiak Defence WK180C Gen2 (~$1,450). Gen 2 introduced in 2022. Pros: inexpensive, decent accuracy, decent weight, takes AR mags, has lots of other perks that runners and gunners are looking for (long lightweight handguard has plenty of M-LOK on side and bottom, non-reciprocating charging handle, external bolt catch, AR-style cross-pins & safety selector). Cons: not the most compact, durablility is a question mark (6061-T6 upper & lower receiver, compared to the better 7075-T6 on the Raven), although it uses a short-stroke gas system reliability is not great when out of the factory (They say it's a fixer upper. I've heard that Kodiak's break in procedure are awful but after you get that out of the way the guy runs flawlessly. True North sells parts to improve reliability tho.).
* Kel-Tec Rifle Downward-ejecting Bullpup (RDB) (~$1,600). Pros: relatively inexpensive, decent accuracy, decent weight (7lbs empty), compact, completely ambidextrous, takes AR mags. Cons: some people don't like the ergonomics (bullpup), reciprocating charging handle, reliability varies (lots of stovepipes and double-feeds reported when gun is new, but apparently it settles in OK if you can work through the issues), and I hear manufacturer warranty is hard to follow-up on.
* Black Creek Labs SRV2 Siberian (~$1,700). Pros: pretty inexpensive for a BCL product, good accuracy (it's the only one on here chambered in 223 Wylde so it can shoot .223REM accurately while still shooting the faster 5.56NATO no problemo), low weight (it's listed as 6.9lbs empty on some sites, but BCL spec sheet says 7.4lbs for the 18.6" barrel non-restricted version), relatively compact for a typical semi-auto layout (packs down to 29″ long with the Zhukov stock folded for CQB use, so you can get it to be shorter than the 30" of the T97 or RDB bullpups but you won't be able to nestle into your shoulder so it won't be as accurate. 36.50”-39.00” OAL with the stock fully collapsed or fully extended), durable (4150 Chrome Moly button rifled barrel, built-in QD points with steel inserts instead of aluminum), pretty ambidextrous (ambi safety, BCL’s standard mag and right-side bolt release buttons to boot), takes AR mags, has lots of other perks that runners and gunners are looking for (15" long free-floating handguard has plenty of M-LOK on side and bottom, milspec removable trigger guard for shooting in the winter with thick gloves), manufacturer warranty. Cons: reliability varies (but BCL stands behind its products).
* Crusader Arms Templar Gen 2 (~$2,000 with milspec trigger, ~$2,250 with Trigger Tech trigger). Pretty similar to the Raven, but upper and lower receiver is 6061-T6 not 7075-T6 aluminum, but with an ACR-style collapsible stock instead of the Raven's Zhukov collapsible stock. Manufacturer warranty seems good as well.
* Lockhart Tactical Raven in 5.56NATO/.223REM(~$2,050). Pros: good reliability and accuracy when tuned (DI system is tunable from the factory, 316 Stainless Steel bolt-carrier coated with a DLC (Diamond Like Carbon) coating, match grade 416R stainless steel 5R button rifled barrel), low weight (6.8lbs), very compact (Packs down to 26" long with Zhukov stock folded, OAL is 37” stock fully extended, 34” stock fully collapsed), durable (upper & lower receiver are 7075-T6 aluminum and not just 6061-T6 like others), Platinum model is completely ambidextrous (lefties should avoid the Gold model which isn't ambi), takes AR mags, has lots of other perks that runners and gunners are looking for (long lightweight handguard has plenty of M-LOK on side and bottom, top and /or side [ambi] charging handle options out of the factory, AR-style buffer tube/buttstock/trigger group/extractor claw, last-round bolt hold open, tool-less takedown), manufacturer warranty. Cons: some people say the handguard wiggles a bit (apparently it's normal due to the ability to remove the handguard without tools), and while it has many QD points the ones in the handrail are all in 6061-T6 aluminum so longevity is a question mark.
* Heckler & Koch SL8 Variant (~$2,200, if you can find one). Pros: well known for simplicity and reliability (uses a proven short stroke, piston-actuated gas operating system, based on the combat-proven G36 rifle used by the German Army), manufacturer warranty. Cons: heavy (9.2lbs empty!!!), durability is a question mark (constructed almost entirely of a reinforced carbon-fiber polymer so things might loosen up as you put rounds down range, and some people are saying it feels like a toy), and the non-restricted version sold in Canada is (AFAIK) limited to .223REM so it might not be able to shoot the faster 5.56NATO cartridges.
HyeProfile
Member
- Location
- Montreal, Canada
You also have the option of sub-$2K (or thereabouts) in 7.62 calibers (but it's pretty well known that 7.62×51NATO/.308WIN chambered guns are ~$1K more than 5.56/223 guns so I've included up to $3K-ish guns as well):
* Norinco (chinese) SKS Type 56 in 7.62x39 Soviet (~$500 for a wood stock version). For completeness, I have to mention it. Uses SKS mags but you can convert it to use AK mags: Some importers also did this when they came in the 80s/90s with really poor results but I believe the correct way to do it involves placing a metal magwell inside the stock and also modifying the bolt so it feeds correctly. The mags themselves also need a small square cutout in the rear for the same reason.
* Kodiak Defence Scorpio SKS 15 in 7.62x39 Soviet (~$800). Takes AK mags just like an SKS-D or SKS-M.
* Kodiak Defence WK181C Gen2 in 7.62x39 Soviet (~$1,500, but it varies). New for 2023. Same pros/cons as the 5.56NATO version especially the part about it being an inexpensive option, decent weight (7.25lbs, which is very good for the 7.62 caliber rifles), but uses AK mags, and although it uses a mid-length gas system (compared the the short-stroke system in the 5.56NATO version) reliability is not great when out of the factory (They say it's a fixer upper. I've heard that Kodiak's break in procedure are awful but after you get that out of the way the guy runs flawlessly. I've also heard the Norco Red box 7.62x39 ammo that works well in an SKS will get stuck in this gun, so you need to use more decent ammo = $$$. True North sells parts to improve reliability tho.).
* Crusader Arms CRUCIBLE in 7.62x39 Soviet (pre-sale is $2,000 with milspec trigger). Takes AK mags. You'll probably need to spend an extra $250-$500 to get a better trigger, but this one's an interesting option!!! Has G-MOD stock or ACR style stock option.
* Lockhart Tactical Raven in 7.62x39 Soviet (not sure of the price but it's around $2,000 I think). It's an SKS-style Modular Semi-automatic Rifle. Petty much the same pros and cons as the Raven in 5.56NATO, but takes AK mags.
* Kel-Tec RFB24 in .308WIN (~$2,350). It's a bullpup (if you like bullpups), but I don't know enough about it to list pros/cons.
* Crusader Arms CRUX in .308WIN (~$3,000 with milspec trigger, $3,500 with Trigger Tech trigger).
* Lockhart Tactical Raven 7.62NATO/.308WIN ($4K-5K from what I hear). Pretty much the same pros and cons as the Raven in 5.56NATO, but with the added con of being almost twice the price!
But most people seem to suggest you save up and get yourself a real go to war rifle (or some of the better quality civilian versions) for $3-4K (or more):
* IWI Tavor X95 in .223REM (~$2,600 new if you can find one). Bullpup of course. 30.5" OAL and upgrades and enhancements from the original Tavor include a new fire control pack with a 5-6 lb. trigger pull, repositioning of the ambidextrous mag release to an AR-style location, a forearm with Picatinny rails at the 3, 6, and 9 o’clock positions with removable rail covers, relocation of the charging handle closer to your centre of mass, a modular Tavor style pistol grip that can be swapped out to a standard pistol grip with traditional trigger guard and a smaller, lower profile bolt releasebutton.
* IWI Tavor 7 in .308WIN/7.62x51NATO (~$3,300 new if you can find one). Bullpup of course.
* Heckler & Koch G36. These usually sell for $6K or more, but you can get clones for $3K+.
* Norinco (chinese) SKS Type 56 in 7.62x39 Soviet (~$500 for a wood stock version). For completeness, I have to mention it. Uses SKS mags but you can convert it to use AK mags: Some importers also did this when they came in the 80s/90s with really poor results but I believe the correct way to do it involves placing a metal magwell inside the stock and also modifying the bolt so it feeds correctly. The mags themselves also need a small square cutout in the rear for the same reason.
* Kodiak Defence Scorpio SKS 15 in 7.62x39 Soviet (~$800). Takes AK mags just like an SKS-D or SKS-M.
* Kodiak Defence WK181C Gen2 in 7.62x39 Soviet (~$1,500, but it varies). New for 2023. Same pros/cons as the 5.56NATO version especially the part about it being an inexpensive option, decent weight (7.25lbs, which is very good for the 7.62 caliber rifles), but uses AK mags, and although it uses a mid-length gas system (compared the the short-stroke system in the 5.56NATO version) reliability is not great when out of the factory (They say it's a fixer upper. I've heard that Kodiak's break in procedure are awful but after you get that out of the way the guy runs flawlessly. I've also heard the Norco Red box 7.62x39 ammo that works well in an SKS will get stuck in this gun, so you need to use more decent ammo = $$$. True North sells parts to improve reliability tho.).
* Crusader Arms CRUCIBLE in 7.62x39 Soviet (pre-sale is $2,000 with milspec trigger). Takes AK mags. You'll probably need to spend an extra $250-$500 to get a better trigger, but this one's an interesting option!!! Has G-MOD stock or ACR style stock option.
* Lockhart Tactical Raven in 7.62x39 Soviet (not sure of the price but it's around $2,000 I think). It's an SKS-style Modular Semi-automatic Rifle. Petty much the same pros and cons as the Raven in 5.56NATO, but takes AK mags.
* Kel-Tec RFB24 in .308WIN (~$2,350). It's a bullpup (if you like bullpups), but I don't know enough about it to list pros/cons.
* Crusader Arms CRUX in .308WIN (~$3,000 with milspec trigger, $3,500 with Trigger Tech trigger).
* Lockhart Tactical Raven 7.62NATO/.308WIN ($4K-5K from what I hear). Pretty much the same pros and cons as the Raven in 5.56NATO, but with the added con of being almost twice the price!
But most people seem to suggest you save up and get yourself a real go to war rifle (or some of the better quality civilian versions) for $3-4K (or more):
* IWI Tavor X95 in .223REM (~$2,600 new if you can find one). Bullpup of course. 30.5" OAL and upgrades and enhancements from the original Tavor include a new fire control pack with a 5-6 lb. trigger pull, repositioning of the ambidextrous mag release to an AR-style location, a forearm with Picatinny rails at the 3, 6, and 9 o’clock positions with removable rail covers, relocation of the charging handle closer to your centre of mass, a modular Tavor style pistol grip that can be swapped out to a standard pistol grip with traditional trigger guard and a smaller, lower profile bolt releasebutton.
* IWI Tavor 7 in .308WIN/7.62x51NATO (~$3,300 new if you can find one). Bullpup of course.
* Heckler & Koch G36. These usually sell for $6K or more, but you can get clones for $3K+.
HyeProfile
Member
- Location
- Montreal, Canada
My recommendations if you're tight on budget:
*if you like bullpups, get a Norinco Type 97 (or T97) Gen 3.
*if you're OK with the longer length of the non-restricted semi-autos with typical (non-bullpup) layouts, get a Kodiak Defence WK180C Gen2.
*if you're Not OK with the longer length of the non-restricted semi-autos with typical (non-bullpup) layouts, get a Zhukov or ACR style collapsable stock, so get a Black Creek Labs SRV2 Siberian
If you're not tight on your budget, but still don't want a bullpup, get a Crusader Arms Templar Gen 2 or a Lockhart Tactical Raven . Pick your preferred stock.
If you plan on going to war with squirrels, get a IWI Tavor X95 or Tavor 7 or better yet a Heckler & Koch G36
*if you like bullpups, get a Norinco Type 97 (or T97) Gen 3.
*if you're OK with the longer length of the non-restricted semi-autos with typical (non-bullpup) layouts, get a Kodiak Defence WK180C Gen2.
*if you're Not OK with the longer length of the non-restricted semi-autos with typical (non-bullpup) layouts, get a Zhukov or ACR style collapsable stock, so get a Black Creek Labs SRV2 Siberian
If you're not tight on your budget, but still don't want a bullpup, get a Crusader Arms Templar Gen 2 or a Lockhart Tactical Raven . Pick your preferred stock.
If you plan on going to war with squirrels, get a IWI Tavor X95 or Tavor 7 or better yet a Heckler & Koch G36
I have to agree with this.
LOL.. people laugh at the Su-16 and so do I....BUT, i owned 1 and I ran the #### out of it for 4 years.
I was always waiting for it to explode or CRACK in the back like some do, but it never happened.
they feel cheap "because they are" and it feels like a toy.....but they shoot very fast " easy tiger group" and had Very good accuracy ! It was not ammo Fussy, it never jammed. It took ALL mags.
I to went down the WK 180 path and their variants and was disappointed in how fast "wear on moving parts" showed up.
i wont recommend the SU -16 but I would take it over the other higher priced garbage out there.
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Not sure about the price piece for most of the models aside from the WK, but as a guy who has owned a WK (Gen 1.5), an SL8, and an X95...I don't use my WK anymore, I sold the SL8 and the X95...I am keeping that till the day I die. Superbly built, great ergonomics, I don't bother cleaning it much and it just runs and runs all sorts of ammo, has lots of compatibility for parts, can be upgraded if one wishes.
Love them or hate them, I feel you should add the Type 81 to this list. Hard to deny their reliability.
Had a WK180C, sold it, too unreliable. Had a Siberian SVR2, sold it, not comfortable and sort of "meh". Have a Keltec RDB and love it! Shorter, less recoil, feels like a nerf gun, super maneuverable. Everyone has preferences. You really have to try them all. Now that I know I prefer bullpups, I'm saving for a lifetime X95. If I have the cash, I'll pick up a Raven.
LexInfidelis
CGN Regular
Only way I’d invest in the Raven is via the builders kit. I’ve heard too many mixed reviews on the complete rifles and the stock barrels. I think it’s still too early to call the Raven a reliable platform. Saving up for an X95 or BREN is probably the best way to spend your money. YMMV.
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I have a raven and haven’t had any issues and accuracy is on par with the MS.
I’d say it’s on par with the MS in fit and finish.
Only issue I’m aware of is the gen 1 Bolt carrier and that’s been resolved.
They all had teething problems, including the CZ
Other than the Norinco SKS I wouldn't trust any other guns on that list. Type 81 is the best bet for a relatively cheap, reliable, semi auto, magazine fed, 7.62x39 in Canada at this moment.
