Help with 223 loads for 700 sps varmint

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AaronGer

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Updated data on post #48 reloading data and group measurements

Hi guys,

So here's the deal.
I just bought my brothers Remington 700 sps varmint in .223
It comes with a pile of American eagle brass and 5.56 brass. He has the reloading equipment for other calibres and will show me how to use it if I buy the stuff I need.

The gun has a 26" heavy barrel with a 12" twist. I'm looking to improve my shooting skills so it will only be used on paper. I have occasional access to a 600m range and will otherwise be shooting about 100 yards.

I would like to shoot accurately between 100 and 300-400 yards. I know with this setup 400 will probably be all over the place. I am on a fairly restrictive budget but I want loads that are good enough that I know mistakes were made by me and not my cheap ammo. I'm not that great a shot so it doesn't have to win competitions.

From what information and limited understanding I have it seems I should be looking at either Berger or hornady ammo between 50 and 55 grains? My understanding is that the 12" twist will not reliably stabilize anything heavier and lighter ones will lose accuracy at the longer distances. I checked at wholesale sports and the Sierra match were really pricey. Is there any other bullets I should be looking at instead?

I'm kinda lost as far as the powder goes. I checked the hodgdon calculator but it lists quite a few powders and doesn't list all the bullet options.

What primers?

I've asked around and it seems like it shouldn't matter if I use 556 brass because it's already been fire formed to this chamber and will be resized during reloading anyway?

For the dies I've heard there is a 2 die set and 3 die set but the 3 die set is better? 2 die seems to be about $50 and three die ??? Is it worth the extra money? Are all die sets ok with all loading setups?

I've asked at a couple of the local gun shops. They can order stuff in if I know what I want but they didn't know much about reloading. Another local shop is apparently the place to go but they keep odd hours so it's hard to make it in.


If anyone has loaded for this gun and has a good setup please post your findings.

Thanks for helping out a noob ;)
 
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Typically a 1 in 12 twist is appropriate for typical bullets up to 60 grs, 45-55 being my preference. Lots of good powders out there, h322, varget, Reloder 10x, benchmark to name a few.

There are good bullets for your purposes in the brands you mentioned, but I would also like to recommend the Speer 52gr BTHP Match bullet, which would be ideal for your twist rate and perfect for punching paper (a very accurate bullet).

For the three die set, I assume you are talking about the set with the full length sizer, neck sizer, and seater. I prefer having all three dies, since neck sizing is a good way to increase your brass life and increase accuracy in many cases as well. The full length is used to size brass back to specs when you need to, like when you are using brass fired from another rifle.
 
As for primers, I pretty much use whatever I can find in large quantities. I try to stick with CCI, but I use lots of winchester and federal as well. They have different pressures and cup metallurgy, but they have never really made a big difference to me. Just my opinion though, and we all know about those.
 
Thanks mike.

How much difference will it make between bullet weights and manufacturers? Should I be sweating it too much between 50 and 55?
Same with powders? Is there a specific powder I should use? IMR was one of the options at the local store. Also do powers have to be matched to the gun and brand/style of bullet or just the weight and caliber?

I guess there are only two sizes for primers and I need small ones.

So unless the cost difference is huge I should get the three piece set of dies. Also where do you buy your reloading stuff? Local or online? Is a neck sizer specific to each caliber? Do I need to buy a certain name brand die set for his setup or are they generic?

Thanks again
 
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I've found the differences between manufacturers, same weight in .223 to be huge. I shoot coyotes with 55gr Nosler BT and Sierra Blitzkings, the blitzkings like way more powder and jump to lands. That said, they are extremely close accuracy wise with a slight edge to Nosler. But the sierra are better performers on hide...

I prefer Remington BR primers, they work very well for me and I can always find them.

Yes, neck sizing dies are caliber specific. Some, such as Redding type S have interchangeable bushings to tailor neck tension. Neck dies are also only sold by themselves. Unless maybe Lee has a die set that includes a collet style die? I use wilson hand dies, so I'm not too familiar with that style.
 
I have a Redding 3 die set. You will use the neck sizer on brass that you have fired and the full length resizer on brass that you pick up at the range or has been fired out of any other .223 rifle. I shoot a Remington 700 with a 26" barrel similar to yours. (check out the thread regarding Varmint rifles shooting 0.75 " in the Precision Rifle Section). You should get a reloading manual. A lot of your questions will be answered there. Bullet manufacturers produce load data for their projectiles. A more generic source would be Modern Reloading by Richard Lee (2nd ed.). I use BR (benchrest) primers because they do what they do with more consistency than the regular small rifle primers. But I have use both with some success. In terms of the primer manufacturer, I try to get CCI, but they are not always available, so I have used Federal, Remington and Winchester without any failures.

The bullets you select will be specific to the task they are to perform. I see that you will be shooting mostly targets, so Sierra Match Kings would be a good choice. They come in either 52 grain or 53 grain flavours. I have also had some success with Hornady 55 grain Vmax bullets.

I will PM you with some specific data.
 
AaronGer said:
Thanks mike.

How much difference will it make between bullet weights and manufacturers? Should I be sweating it too much between 50 and 55?
Same with powders? Is there a specific powder I should use? IMR was one of the options at the local store. Also do powers have to be matched to the gun and brand/style of bullet or just the weight and caliber?

I guess there are only two sizes for primers and I need small ones.

So unless the cost difference is huge I should get the three piece set of dies. Also where do you buy your reloading stuff? Local or online? Is a neck sizer specific to each caliber? Do I need to buy a certain name brand die set for his setup or are they generic?

Thanks again
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Although I am by no means an expert, it has been in my experience that rifles will just prefer certain bullets, specific to grain weights and even brand. I find the best way to find the perfect load, short of making an educated guess based on experience (yours or others), is to try a few component combinations. Your rifle might shoot better with, say, a certain 50 grain bullet while your buddy's rifle prefers a certain 55 grain bullet even with the same barrel length and twist rate.

Good news is, I am convince that if you choose a bullet with a good reputation and one of the popular powders mentioned in this thread, you should be able an accurate load that meets your needs.

I know powders are relatively scarce these days, it might just come down to what's available too. When I start load development, especially for a new cartridge or rifle, I prefer to keep it simple. I choose one powder and one bullet and develop it. If it meets my needs, I fine tune it a bit and stick with it until I am ready to investigate other loads. This is just my way though, there are other strategies too.

Personally I buy local when I can (if the price is right) as it generally saves on shipping in most cases. If you can find good deals on components online though, I highly recommend it.
 
Thanks for all the info guys. I'm learning a lot. This is a lot more complicated than I would have thought:p.

So I've been reading info here and talking to my brother. So far this is what I've come up with:

Rcbs die set with full body die and seater, rcbs because they are available locally and parts are available if needed. Apparently the redding adjustable ones are better but a little more complicated for a beginner?

Rcbs Neck sizing die for brass that has only been fired once or twice in this gun

Neck trimmer. My brother has one but I either need a different pin or whole new unit because of the size difference between .223 and .308?

For measuring the chamber brother has something to measure his but I don't know if the same tool will work between the .308 and .233?

Bench rest primers or cci if possible, otherwise not that critical

Bullets nosler/ hornady vmax, amax, or bthp/ Sierra match if they aren't to pricey,/ Speer

bthp preferably in 52 or 53 grain but possibly in 55 if the others aren't available.

Powder: sounds like hodgdon powder is the most available here so probably H335 or possibly some sort of IMR powder. Would these powders be good for all the bullets I'm looking at or only for specific ones? Once I figure out about availability and compatibility then I need to find a calculator. The hodgdon calculator has stuff for sierras but not for the others. Would all the bullets I listed be in the reloading books? If so I'll see if I can get ahold of the books.

Money is pretty tight right now as my wife has been waiting for a surgery for a couple months now and we both have missed a lot of work while she's been sick. Hopefully when she's recovered money will loosen up again. With that in mind I'd like to get this right the first time because I'm stuck with whatever I buy. I don't mind spending time figuring out seating depths and amount of powder and whatnot. I'll be following the KISS advice for sure.

Thanks again guys
If I missed anything or messed up let me know
 
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First thing to do is go out and buy 2 reloading manuals and read then cover to cover. Buy a Lyman reloading manual and the ABC's of Reloading. Many of your questions will be answered.
 
This is what my Rem 700 with 1:12 twist is doing with 36gr varmint grenades and IMR4198. One inch squares at 100yds.

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Any bullet within a reasonable weight for the twist rate and most suitable powders can be made to work with some development. No one can give you a recipe that will work in your rifle but with a 12 twist I would stay below 62gr and go with any powder listed in your books that you can get your hands on. Powder is a little scarce lately so if you find something like IMR4198, CFE223, Varget, H335, etc just buy a couple pounds and start trying different combinations, starting with low powder charges (close to published minimum) and work your way up.

Good luck
 
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maynard said:
First thing to do is go out and buy 2 reloading manuals and read then cover to cover. Buy a Lyman reloading manual and the ABC's of Reloading. Many of your questions will be answered.
Click to expand...

It seems as though I probably need to borrow the manuals and start reading. I thought I was going to get a list of a couple things and be on my way. Obviously I was out to lunch. For the record I'm not planning to just sit in front of the bench and go to work. I have a brother who knows how to reload that is going to teach me. I just need to get the stuff specific to my load.

Cr5 that is a very impressive grouping. It sounds like those loads might be a little light for the longer distances though. What distances do you find them accurate to?
 
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That's some impressive shooting cr5. Mine definitely don't look like that. I'll try to check in with the other local gun shop for availability and try to borrow the manuals as well. How many loads can I expect to get from a lb of powder. My brother seemed to think it would be around 300 but that was a wild guess
 
AaronGer said:
That's some impressive shooting cr5. Mine definitely don't look like that. I'll try to check in with the other local gun shop for availability and try to borrow the manuals as well. How many loads can I expect to get from a lb of powder. My brother seemed to think it would be around 300 but that was a wild guess
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A pound of powder is 7000 grains so dividing by whatever charge weight you end up going with will give you an approximate number.

http://www.reloaderhub.com/calculator.cfm

I haven't shot them past 100yds yet as I'm still testing loads and working on developing heavier bullet loads. These are just for shooting varmints and predators under 200yds. A 12 twist is not ideal for long range precision work and I would consider rebarreling to a 1:7 or 1:8 if I wanted to shoot 500yds or more as the tighter twist is needed to stabilize the longer heavier bullets at extended distances.

As a new shooter and reloader don't worry about shooting 500yds with a 223 until you get the basics mastered. Start out with developing a decent reliable load and since you will need to buy all the equipment and books for yourself anyway get started with a couple books, I have a Hornady 9th edition and the Nosler 7th edition as well as an older manual plus a few that I've printed off the net. Sierra, Nosler and Hodgedon all have online reloading data that you can print off and make your own book as well. I have a couple 3 inch 3 ring binders full of reloading data, instructions and tips that I printed off and reference as well as my published reloading manuals. Always check at least 2 sources for reloading data and one of them should be the bullet manufacturer and one should be the powder manufacturer. The more info you can find the better.

The key to reloading is consistency and accuracy, don't cheap out on your equipment, a quality balance beam scale is all you need but a good case trimmer, calipers and press are important. I use Lee and RCBS dies and have never had any problems with them. Log everything you do in high detail and take your time to make sure it's perfect. Reloading is not for someone who doesn't have patience or high attention to detail. Close enough is never good enough.

As a warning, you won't save any money if you are reloading to make premium accurate loads but you will end up with quality ammo for the same price as bulk ammo. If you reload with cheap bullets you can save some cash but the performance will suffer and you will spend a lot of time reloading that you could have spent at the range becoming a better shooter. You need to buy your powder, bullets, and primers in large quantities to actually save any money doing this.

Another thing to try is to buy a box of every weight and type of factory ammo you can find and see if your barrel seems to prefer a certain weight and then buy your bullets in that weight and try to duplicate the results with your handloads.

A chronograph is not required but it can help.


Good luck
 
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Thanks for all the info guys. Punching it out it looks like between .60 and .75 a round not including tools. Basically about what the cheap American eagles cost. So that sounds about right. The first 100 rounds will probably cost double.

I'll definitely check out the manufacturer websites and the books. Are there specific ammunitions I should be trying first? If I do try an ammo that works well is there info on the type and amount of powder in each?
 
AaronGer said:
Thanks for all the info guys. Punching it out it looks like between .60 and .75 a round not including tools. Basically about what the cheap American eagles cost. So that sounds about right. The first 100 rounds will probably cost double.

I'll definitely check out the manufacturer websites and the books. Are there specific ammunitions I should be trying first? If I do try an ammo that works well is there info on the type and amount of powder in each?
Click to expand...

Check out this site http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/ there is some good information and also http://www.mysticprecision.com/wp/category/tech/tech-reloading/ lots of great info about reloading out there if you spend some time looking for it.
 
For punching paper and shooting varmints, I really like H-335 and Speer 52 grain HP bullets. You can get the bullets in boxes of 1,000 so it makes them a bit cheaper. The H335 leaves a bit of carbon in the barrel, but accuracy (in my rifles anyway) holds up quite well for 100 - 150 rounds.
Another powder that's worked very well for me is Benchmark. It's a bit more expensive, but what the heck, it's only money!
 
AaronGer said:
Thanks for all the info guys. Punching it out it looks like between .60 and .75 a round not including tools. Basically about what the cheap American eagles cost. So that sounds about right. The first 100 rounds will probably cost double.

I'll definitely check out the manufacturer websites and the books. Are there specific ammunitions I should be trying first? If I do try an ammo that works well is there info on the type and amount of powder in each?
Click to expand...

If you buy quality equipment (buy once, cry once...), you'll be able to spread the cost of the gear over several hundred thousand rounds before it wears out....

If you can find it, Federal gold medal match would be worth trying. I've tried some Hornady match, and both types (223 Rem and 308 Win) that I tried seem to show signs of high pressure.... YMMV
Manufacturers likely won't give load data for their factory ammo. If you're trying to duplicate a factory load, you likely won't find the exact powder they use, but you might be able to match muzzle velocity. You'd need a chronograph for that exercise.
You could likely match group size without a chronograph, but all the usual load development precautions would apply.

Stan


Stan
 
sniper58 said:
For punching paper and shooting varmints, I really like H-335 and Speer 52 grain HP bullets. You can get the bullets in boxes of 1,000 so it makes them a bit cheaper. The H335 leaves a bit of carbon in the barrel, but accuracy (in my rifles anyway) holds up quite well for 100 - 150 rounds.
Another powder that's worked very well for me is Benchmark. It's a bit more expensive, but what the heck, it's only money!
Click to expand...

Apparently hodgdon powder and Speer bullets are available locally so I might end up going that route. Was the benchmark worth the extra money? Burnt cleaner? Better performance?

Thanks for all the help guys
 
OldDude said:
If you buy quality equipment (buy once, cry once...), you'll be able to spread the cost of the gear over several hundred thousand rounds before it wears out....

If you can find it, Federal gold medal match would be worth trying. I've tried some Hornady match, and both types (223 Rem and 308 Win) that I tried seem to show signs of high pressure.... YMMV
Manufacturers likely won't give load data for their factory ammo. If you're trying to duplicate a factory load, you likely won't find the exact powder they use, but you might be able to match muzzle velocity. You'd need a chronograph for that exercise.
You could likely match group size without a chronograph, but all the usual load development precautions would apply.

Stan


Stan
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I looked up the gold metal match and the only listing I can find is for 69 and 77 grain bullets which will probably be a little heavy for my barrel. From what I've been told the RCBS dies I'm looking at are good so I'm hoping that's the case. I won't be buying all the extra stuff for quite some time.

I'll keep that in mind about the hornady match
 
AaronGer said:
Apparently hodgdon powder and Speer bullets are available locally so I might end up going that route. Was the benchmark worth the extra money? Burnt cleaner? Better performance?

Thanks for all the help guys
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The Benchmark gave (on average) groups about .25" better from my rifle using Hornady 55 gr V-max bullets(5-shot groups, Savage VLP) than the H-335. Velocity was about 75 fps more as well. I have 6 or 7 pounds of H-335 and 700 Speer 52 gr. bullets right now, so I'm using them up. I never paid too much attention as to whether it was a whole lot cleaner, and the cost really isn't a factor to me.

Some of the combinations that have worked for me are:

Hodgdon BL(C)-2 with 55 gr. Sierra PSP bullets - avg group .75" 3313 fps
Hodgdon Varget with Nosler 55 gr Ballistic Tips - avg group .86" @ 3220 fps
Hodgdon Benchmark with 55 gr V-max - avg group .5" @ 3225 fps
Hodgdon H-335 with Speer 52 gr HP - avg group .75" @ 3160 fps.

I just realized right now that Hodgdon powder works well for me!

I've tried lots of other powders, but I have lots of the Hodgdon stuff in the locker.

Now if I could find a powder that will work well with Winchester 55 gr. PSP bullets, I'll be happy (I have 1500 of them and nothing I've tried has given less than 2" groups).
 
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