Help with barrel removal

[farshot]

I have used PVC split pipe (the grey thinner pipe of the correct diameter for the bbl) as a sleeve (plus rosin) around the bbl in a vise like the one in the above picture.
I used a long torque bar with a pipe as a snipe on an old M98 action (I use an inner action wrench). When that bbl let go I thought it was a gunshot or something broke the crack was so loud, but it finally released.
That particular tight bbl was during winter and I put it outside at -30 and then tried it, after giving the receiver a bit of heat from a propane torch to try and get a differential expansion going...it may have helped.

In my view, the metal spacers that fit exactly is of course the best way to go if you can make them.
Your vice's design does not contact enough metal of the bbl. If you can make a spacer that fits the V of the block and fits tightly around the bbl shank, you have fighting chance.

 

[Biologist]

Hi Tikka 223. I am following this thread with great interest, as I have a Tikka T3X stainless Varmint barrel that I would like to remove soon. I have similar tools that you have: a Wheeler external action wrench with the flats on both jaws, and I have a Viper barrel vise that looks alot like your vise.

Please let us know when and how you got that Tikka barrel off. I hear they are tough to crack. Hoping to learn from your experience!

 

[Potashminer]

My first version of a barrel vice was also bought on CGN - as described in Post #21 - used PVC plumbing or perhaps electrical conduit for inserts - hole in vice was sized accordingly. It worked for several barrels until it did not - I could torque with cheater pipe to clamp those 5/8 inch fine thread clamp bolts - plastic would flow and barrel still turned. Had to make up spacers, etc. and assembled into the 4 jaw chuck on lathe - reamed out hole in vice blocks to 1.5" diameter and started with the aluminum inserts reamed out from 1.5" aluminum rod stock. I know next step will be real steel inserts, but so far have not needed to go that far - what I have has allowed my feet to come off floor on a 48" cheater bar on the external action wrench, and the barrel vice did not allow barrel to turn. Not real sure I have gumption enough, if more than this is required...

 

[pjs]

So you suggest clamping in the barrel as is (only tighter next time) and trying again?

Yes clamp the barrel as tight as possible, don't let it slip and damage the finish. Generally only factory barrels are overly difficult. When you replace the barrel there is no need to make it so tight.
The round bushings like Guntech posted are the superior way to go but you would need a lathe to bore them to size.

 

[Tikka223]

So much for the wood block idea. There just isn’t enough room in the barrel vice to fit it. I’m going to try and make some sort of sleeve out of PVC pipe, rubber, or maybe some brass if I can find a big enough caliber casing.

 

[guntech]

You are wasting your time... the answers are already posted...

Maybe take it to a gunsmith...

What are you going to do when the barrel is removed?

 

[Tikka223]

You are wasting your time... the answers are already posted...

Maybe take it to a gunsmith...

What are you going to do when the barrel is removed?

You don’t think the sleeve idea will work?

The barrel is coming off because I plan on installing a 6.5 Creedmoor. I have 3 T3s at the moment and only so much time to go to the range. My .223 hasn’t been used in forever so I’m pulling the barrel and will spin on a pre-fit in 6.5 and sell my T3 CTR in 6.5. The money I get back from selling the surplus rifle and scope will allow me to upgrade my scope.

ThE bolt from my T3 CTR in .308 will do double duty for the .308 and the .223 action. I’ve measure the bolts and used go/no-go gauges and I’m pretty confident the .308 bolt will work with a 6.5 barrel in the .223 action. Yes it’s a bit Frankenstein but I really like the Tikka actions and a similar setup action will cost me at least $2000 for just an action.

 

[Potashminer]

Your stuff to do with as you see fit.. A .223 Rem has a different bolt face size than does a .308 Win. Your planning needs to include cost of paying for getting the barrels swapped, which might mean getting a "real" set of tools?

 

[Tikka223]

Your stuff to do with as you see fit.. A .223 Rem has a different bolt face size than does a .308 Win. Your planning needs to include cost of paying for getting the barrels swapped, which might mean getting a "real" set of tools?

.308 bolt will for 6.5 and there are prefit barrels on the market. Once I get the .223 barrel off I should have everything I need to go back and forth.

 

[AikiNut]

The gunsmith who worked on both of my TRs suggested, while he was banging on a wrench attached to an action, that gunsmiths should never let the client watch them change a barrel.. A LOT of force can be required - striking the wrench with a whammer (AKA thumb-finder) causes a rapid change in acceleration (aka "jerk") which can break the threads free. But watching the guy do it to your own rifle? shudder.

 

[tiriaq]

I would suggest that if a hammer is going to be used to break a receiver loose from a barrel - and sometimes a blow will accomplish what a strong pull on a long cheater won't - that the receiver wrench be a really good one with absolutely proper fit. Otherwise, there is a really good chance that the receiver will be ruined.
It is a given that a strong barrel vise with properly fitting blocks will be used.
A rifle receiver isn't a monolithic, indestructible block. The cross sections are remarkably thin. Receivers can be crushed, bent, cracked.
Anyone getting into barrel removal and replacement had best give up on any ideas of using improvised tools. Do it right, or don't do it at all.
There are some exceptions - a decent vise, a length of strong rope, and a pick handle (or some such) will generally remove a 94 Winchester barrel. Flat receiver and barrel that isn't torqued in too tight. Even the, the receiver can be crushed if the vise is used in a ham handed fashion.

 

[bearhunter]

I would suggest that if a hammer is going to be used to break a receiver loose from a barrel - and sometimes a blow will accomplish what a strong pull on a long cheater won't - that the receiver wrench be a really good one with absolutely proper fit. Otherwise, there is a really good chance that the receiver will be ruined.
It is a given that a strong barrel vise with properly fitting blocks will be used.
A rifle receiver isn't a monolithic, indestructible block. The cross sections are remarkably thin. Receivers can be crushed, bent, cracked.
Anyone getting into barrel removal and replacement had best give up on any ideas of using improvised tools. Do it right, or don't do it at all.
There are some exceptions - a decent vise, a length of strong rope, and a pick handle (or some such) will generally remove a 94 Winchester barrel. Flat receiver and barrel that isn't torqued in too tight. Even the, the receiver can be crushed if the vise is used in a ham handed fashion.

This is about as real as it gets.

Even with the proper tooling, a receiver or barrel can be ruined or marred to the point it has to be discarded.

One other thing, DON'T APPLY heat. The only heat I've ever applied was a hot/wet towel, after dipping in in boiling water. That will soften some of the Loc Tites used to keep barrels tight, when the threads are a bit sloppy.

Yes, some manufacturers use LOC TITE or something similar as do some gunsmiths. In some cases, it has its place.

It's easy to copy the threads on the tenon of a take off barrel, but getting exact measurements from the inside threads of the receiver are another issue.

 

[Potashminer]

....
A rifle receiver isn't a monolithic, indestructible block. The cross sections are remarkably thin. Receivers can be crushed, bent, cracked.
....

Especially bent (curved or twisted). For a while I used a rear entry type internal wrench that engaged on the bolt locking lugs - it stuck out the rear of the receiver and was grabbed there with a 7/8" six point socket - I used an 18" strong arm (for 1/2" socket) , and sometimes slide a pipe over that handle as a snipe. It became apparent that it was virtually impossible for me to apply serious torque, and at the same time, keep that internal wrench straight and aligned to the bore. The last time that I used it to remove a barrel from a milsurp mauser, that was quite tight or perhaps rusted, I built a "tower" to support that rear end of that wrench - to keep it straight into that receiver, while I had the pipe / strong arm handle pointing straight horizontal to the left - my thinking was that I only need a small bit of turn to break it free, and the force on end of handle was "down", so I wanted that socket to stay "up".

Since then I have been using external action wrenches and set them quite close to the barrel vice - just enough room to see down between, to see the aligning marks on receiver and barrel. I don't think there is as much chance to bend a receiver that way.

 

[Potashminer]

An example - a Mauser 98 action. I went with thought that the headless bedding screws are more or less straight with their threads - can see in picture that the front and rear one "tilt" compared to each other. So the rails on that action are twisted. Oddly, a Brownell's action mandrel just screwed right in without fuss, so the bolt raceway bore within that receiver is still relatively straight - just that the rails have seen "torque" from a "make-do" attempt to unscrew that barrel...

 

[Tikka223]

Well these stories are certainly making me reluctant to try again. However, Tikka actions are very strong from what I understand and people have succeeded in getting their barrels off. I’m waiting to get my hands on some brass shims and I’ll be trying again.

 

[trevj]

Look man, if all you want is to take them apart, a big bench with a vise, and a couple pipe wrenches, will do that. It'll be ugly.

That you had to ask what "Round Stock" was, tells us all that you are way over your head, and could do to follow some good advice, which is, "Take it to someone who knows what they are doing!"

It generally takes some basic familiarity with lathe operations, to make a bushing that fits the barrel or action, as you see fit. Lacking that, you need to concentrate maybe, on Savages that are designed to be worked on with basic tools, to the extent that the Remington shooters refer to their use of a similar system as "Remages". That refers to the use of a nut on the barrel, to fix it in place.
Savages have the additional benefit of an almost tool-less bolt head change.

They (Savage rifles) still sorta want a set of go/no-go gages, but you can sorta work around that.

 

[guntech]

Well these stories are certainly making me reluctant to try again. However, Tikka actions are very strong from what I understand and people have succeeded in getting their barrels off. I’m waiting to get my hands on some brass shims and I’ll be trying again.

Tikka actions are no stronger than many actions... (The strongest 2 locking lug action ever made is a Remington 700)

Barrels on factory actions are installed pretty snug at the factory level.

These barrels can be removed by a competent person with the correct tools very easily. It takes about 5 minutes...

An inexperienced person can spend many days trying, quite possibly marking the action and/or barrel, quite possibly never succeeding...

Don't you have a smith close by that does rebarreling? Who could remove this barrel for you?

I do it quite regularly and charge $20... a do it while you wait kind of job. (it works out to $240 an hour - I love it)

 

[bearhunter]

An example - a Mauser 98 action. I went with thought that the headless bedding screws are more or less straight with their threads - can see in picture that the front and rear one "tilt" compared to each other. So the rails on that action are twisted. Oddly, a Brownell's action mandrel just screwed right in without fuss, so the bolt raceway bore within that receiver is still relatively straight - just that the rails have seen "torque" from a "make-do" attempt to unscrew that barrel...

View attachment 527345

I've seen that exact same condition on new out ot the wrap, in the grease 98s. I don't know if it happened when the receivers were assembled or if they were just made that way.

I've run into the same condition with Winchester bolt and Remington bolt actions. Other than that, the receivers were true.

I've never run into that condition with recievers made up on CNC equipment.

 

[Potashminer]

I most definitely am still learning about this older stuff - that action is actually a Parker Hale commercial 98 action with the front "soldered on" scope base torn off - was removed by mechanical torquing force - not by heat - and the barrel that came with that action had gouges in it, likely from a bench vise, I think. Seller described it as something that "bubba's dumber cousin had his way with" - pretty much checks out to be a true statement, I think. Is in my growing pile of "lessons to be learned from" stuff - even one of the bolt lugs, from that purchase, has a chip off the front edge - I am not sure how to do that if I wanted to?? ...

 

[bearhunter]

I most definitely am still learning about this older stuff - that action is actually a Parker Hale commercial 98 action with the front "soldered on" scope base torn off - was removed by mechanical torquing force - not by heat - and the barrel that came with that action had gouges in it, likely from a bench vise, I think. Seller described it as something that "bubba's dumber cousin had his way with" - pretty much checks out to be a true statement, I think. Is in my growing pile of "lessons to be learned from" stuff - even one of the bolt lugs, from that purchase, has a chip off the front edge - I am not sure how to do that if I wanted to?? ...

I've seen bolts with chips out of them. It happens when bubba isn't smart enough to take the bolt out of the action when trying to screw the barrel out of it.

This often happens when a cartridge with rediculously high pressures is fired and the brass flows back over the bolt and won't allow it to be removed before the barrel is removed.

I would check the lug seats in that receiver for set back, before using it again.

Depending on what caused the receiver to be twisted, it may be salvageable. The one in your pics doesn't appear to be to bad. With a bit of TLC, it might turn out fine. What have you got to lose by trying??? As long as to much heat wasn't used to remove the barrel it should be just as strong as it was made.

Many of the PH receivers were made under contract by Yugoslavian manufacturers, to a much better standard than the 98 type M70 Zastava they produce today.

The biggest problem will be what trigger group that receiver was built for.

Not really much of a problem as a bit of judicious milling will allow you to install a standard milspec or after market Timney without much effort.