Help with ID

KotKotofeich

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Hello experts :)

I need help identifying what this is:

I know it's made by JP Sauer & Sohn, but I can't figure out what its caliber is - bore measures between 11/32 and 23/64.

Thoughts?

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Proofmarks. I'm sure I've seen the man with the alpenstock (?) stamp beofore somehwere, but can't quite remember...

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Post 1891 and before 1939 German Proof laws BUG stamps on a single barrel rifle - also known in German as a Kipplaufbuchse [tipping barrel gun]. There should be many more stamps all over the water-table of the action and under the barrels, advising you of the charge and weight of projectile it was tested with. We need to see them clearly ere we can procede.

Why have you blacked out any markings on the lug, and where did you see the '8 - 11mm blackpowder' marks?

tac
 
I blacked out the serial number, sorry ;)

is the 108/40 stamp the reference to what it was tested with?

the 8-11 mm info is from the sauer catalog I found references to.

<www removed>.shotguns.se/html/1900_to_ca_1914.html (scroll down to the Kiplauf ### model)

<www removed>.deutsches-jagd-lexikon.de/index.php?title=Sauer_Hahn-Kipplaufb%C3%BCchse_Modell_###

oh, and I realized that the man with the _club_ proofmark is a sauer stamp :)
 
Nobody here is going to 'steal' the serial of your single-shot 100 year old+ hunting rifle to misuse, I'm pretty certain. The guy with the club is Hercules, BTW. I've had a look at the page you link to, and you seemed to have nailed it pretty well. The metric bore that you measured in imperial works out at 8.83mm. However, depending on where you made the measurement - lands or grooves - it could also be about fifteen metric cartridges of between 8 and 11mm, so you'd really need to make a chamber cast to find out what it really is.

The 108/40 is an early form of bore description, and suggests that your rifle is nearer that 11mm calibre you noted. Slugging the barrel will definitely help. This article by Steve Meyer is very helpful here -

QUOTE - The most frustrating but perhaps the most useful marks of the 1891-1939 era are the various sets with just numbers present. The two most common sets of numbers applied were bore dimensions and actual proof dates.

Rifles from later in this era are sometimes stamped with a bore (not groove) diameter in millimeters, the most common being 8,8mm for one of the 9.3mm cartridges and 7.7mm for one of the many 8mm cartridges. Some rifles will also have chamber length marked along with bore diameter. Many earlier rifles will be found with numbers indicating the "gauge" (number of bore-sized round lead balls to the pound) diameter of the bore (not groove diameter).

For instance, a number in the 95-105 range would indicate a bore diameter near .360" and hence likely to be a 9.3mm chambering of some kind, while a number in the 170s would indicate an 8mm of some kind. I've even seen rifles marked with a pair of gauge marks that calculated so close to the actual bore and groove dimensions it was astonishing!

There were several commonly used rifle gauge marks such as 172.28, 156.14 and 141.95 that correspond to 0.010” increments starting at 0.300”and getting larger that followed British conventions. Very often this style gauge mark will be of the form 172/28 rather than with a decimal point or comma.

Unfortunately, with German rifle barrels of this vintage, it is nearly always necessary to make a chamber cast to determine the actual chambering and bore dimensions. Be safe by being certain! END QUOTE, with thanks to Steve Meyer.

tac
 
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For a chamber cast, a cheap solution is to plug the bore a short distance into the rifling (ahead of the chamber) and have piece of string tied to the cloth or paper plug. Fill the chamber with paraffin wax and when cool and solid knock out the wax casting. The purpose of the string is to keep the pieces together if the wax cracks and/or breaks during removal. Measure the chamber dimensions with a micrometer and browse through Cartridges of the World for shells that match you dimensions. The chamber and the neck area in particular will be a little larger than the factory shell. If 8 x 57 rimmed I might mention has the same dimensions (except for the rim) as the 8x57 mauser which is rimless. If 8 mm bore the early ones are .318 groove diameter while the later ones are .323" diameter. Either .323 or .321 (32-40) slugs can be swaged easily with a die and a punch and a hammer. Use a bit of lube during the swaging. Almost forgot; use a tight fitting ramrod to measure the twist rate of the rifling. The maximum length of bullet the rifling will stabilize is a little shorter than 150(D squared) over twist rate --- all measured in inches

cheers mooncoon
 
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