Help with Old Rifles

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Higginson

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Hi All

I'm a new member trying to find information. I have tried Google, I have tried it seems almost everything and then the other day I found this site!

I was given a couple of old rifles by my Grandfather (who has since passed), and I'm trying to figure out some info on them. He himself was unsure of their history, just that he remembered them being old when he was a kid and he was 92 when he gave them to me, so that gave me a place to start. I'm mostly interested in origin/history, but would also like to know a value although they are something that I would never sell.

What I'm trying to find out is what I've got.

Rifle # 1) I'm pretty sure I have a Pattern 53 Enfield Snyder MkII **. There are several markings on it which I have tried to identify but have had no luck.














Rifle # 2) I have no idea about this one. Looks like a double barrel, double trigger shotgun. Only markings are W Chance and Son on the side plates, and I just recently found "London Fine ____" on the top of the barrel. Because of wear I can't read the last bit of that marking, but if I had to guess it would be London Fine Twist. I tried some baby powder on it but no luck. No dates, no nothing that I can see. All I know is that it seems a little ornamental. The hammers are fish. Yeah, weird.







That's all I've got. I hope that there's someone out there that can shed some light on this, it would be much appreciated. I really hope the photos work. Awesome forum, I'm glad I found it!

Thanks in advance for any help you guys can give!
 
You've identified the Snider.
The shotgun is a decent quality Birmingham made piece; looks to be in respectable condition. Untold thousands of guns like this were manufactured there in the 19th century.
Chance also made a lot of Indian Trade guns.
 
You nailed the Snider - note spelling. No problems about the usual Proof House and War Department acceptance stamps. Enfield is Enfield Lock where it was made and 1868 is the date that the lock was made.

VR is 'Victoria Regina' - 'Queen Victoria' in Latin - the reigning monarch.

I don't know what the RM stands for on the butt stamp, but no doubt others here do.

Are you going to shoot it?

tac
 
I haven't decided if I'm going to shoot it or not. I'm seriously thinking about it but there's always the time and money factors. I'm most likely going to pick away at it and see where it takes me. I'd love to shoot it, but I realize its going to take some work to get it in shooting condition. Just to have it is really cool and the fact that it's been in my family for almost 150 years is pretty awesome.

Thanks for all the info. What did you mean by proof house and war department acceptance stamps? Is that what some of the other stamps are?

Also: Thanks for the spell check. No matter how many times you read it there's usually always one that gets missed.
 
A shooter? As in it has been and can be shot versus a wall-hanger? Sorry for the lack of knowledge, but I'm kinda new to the blackpowder/antique world
 
Assuming that the barrels are sound; the nipples and threads in good order; the locks functioning properly; and the stock capable of handing the recoil, the shotgun could be a shooter. It needs a gentle cleaning, and an inspection by someone who knows what to look for. If it were mine, I'd be looking at it as a potential shooter. Incidentally, drop a rod down each bore, and make sure it is not loaded.
I have a collection of old shotguns, and shoot a number of them.
 
Yeah, that was one of the first things I did. Not totally sure if its loaded or not. The rod I dropped down had about a one inch difference. I'm thinking it could be just dirt in it, but since I don't need un-necessary holes in me/my house I have held off cleaning it. I have a friend of a friend who has a Gun Repair/Cleaning business so I think I'm going to drop by and get him to check it out. If it *is* loaded: 1) Holy crap, its been in there for probably over 100 years, and 2) I'll have to get him to try to pull it out with a worm.

I'd love to get it to a position to be able to shoot it. You don't see too many of these around and shooting.
 
We had a 'decorator' P53 Enfield in a pub not far from me that hadn't been moved in living memory - at least 70 years, that is.

Taking it off the wall showed a wall colour that was not one that you'd see today, and as a local, I got asked to take a look at it before it went back. I put a rod down it, and yup, it was almost three inches shorter inside than out. Seeing as how it was in good condition, I elected to take it to the range the next day, and see what might happen.

We rested it on a handy gang-mower hitch, held it down with a few bungees from a fellow club-member motorscyclist, pointed it carefully at the backstop, and place an RWS hot top hat cap on it. Using the time-honoured form of trigger release - a long piece of string, the club secretary had the honour of letting 'er rip.

It went boom, covering about twenty feet of the grass with bits of paper, one of which clearly bore the year it had been loaded.

1897. Queen Victoria's Diamond Jubilee.

A lesson here, folks.

tac
 
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Higginson said:
A shooter? As in it has been and can be shot versus a wall-hanger? Sorry for the lack of knowledge, but I'm kinda new to the blackpowder/antique world
Click to expand...

Yup, a shooter, as in take some birds with it!!
We gave my father a Chance and Sons 14 gauge for father's day in 1967,. and he bequeathed it to my son on his 21st birthday.
I have replaced the nipples on it, and ,my son shoots it for a day every year on our annual bird hunt.
It has Platinum "wedding rings" at the breach, and silver inlays all the way up the barrel on the very wide rib!
Fantastic bird gun, swings nice and is very easy to shoot with that wide rib!
I took a few birds with it this year as well,instead of firing the barrels off or pulling the loads at the end of the day.
Took it pout the next morning and killed two nice roosters with it.:>)
Cat


 
tacfoley said:
We had a 'decorator' P53 Enfield in a pub not far from me that hadn't been moved in living memory - at least 70 years, that is.

Taking it off the wall showed a wall colour that was not one that you'd see today, and as a local, I got asked to take a look at it before it went back. I put a rod down it, and yup, it was almost three inches shorter inside than out. Seeing as how it was in good condition, I elected to take it to the range the next day, and see what might happen.

We rested it on a handy gang-mower hitch, held it down with a few bungees from a fellow club-member motorscyclist, pointed it carefully at the backstop, and place an RWS hot top hat cap on it. Using the time-honoured form of trigger release - a long piece of string, the club secretary had the honour of letting 'er rip.

It went boom, covering about twenty feet of the grass with bits of paper, one of which clearly bore the year it had been loaded.

1897. Queen Victoria's Diamond Jubilee.

A lesson here, folks.

tac
Click to expand...

A Good lesson! At the same time, super interesting though. Thats probably what I'll have to do with these two. I'll be getting them checked out next week (time permitting) then I might have a day at the range in my near future!
 
@ Higginson: Ref. those markings you are not sure about. They can be read.

The thing that looks like a crow's foot (/!\) is a Broad Arrow: sign that it is British Government property. WD is War Department. The VR and the RM you have. The crossed flags are the old sign that the thing was fired with a monster overload when it was built..... and survived. 1P and 2P are First and Second Proofs. A small sign looking like a tiny Crown with a number and an E under it would be an Inspector's Mark, the Crown indicating a Government employee, the E indicating he worked at Enfield and the number (2 or 5 or whatever) being his own personal Number. Sometimes you will run into letters on their backs or reversed: these are different Inspectors!

You can make up ammunition for your Snider by starting with 24-gauge shotgun empties, either the plastic ones from Fiocchi or the nice brass ones from Magtech in Brazil. You would run a SOFT cast bullet of about .578 diameter and about 65 grains of FFg BLACK gunpowder; this will get you close enough to the military load that a Fenian would not know the difference. Nor would a Velociraptor, come to think of it! There are a few tricks to making up ammo for the Snider; the fellows here will help.

There are few things in this world more FUN than wasting 5 bucks' worth of powder on a sunny afternoon, with a Snider.

And history? They ARE our history! They MADE it! We had them in Canada BEFORE the British Army in England was fully equipped..... and they were absolutely the Latest Thing. The LOCK on your rifle is precision-made to a standard which would be desirable today; it was the FIRST product of the modern Industrial Age..... which ORIGINATED at Enfield.

Yup. That important.
 
Wow. Thanks for the info Smellie! That's awesome! I'll be sure to pass that on to my family when I see them at Christmas. They'll be glad to hear it! And thanks for all the ammo information too. I'd like to think that I can get the Snider into firing condition, and I'm really hopeful about the Chance shotgun making it to firing condition as well. It will be my first trip (of many hopefully) into the black powder world!
 
Good sound advice here.
Black powder residue is very corrosive. When and if you fire your guns, thoroughly clean them soon afterward (same day - not next week). All you need is water and a tight fitting jag or mop. Cold works fine, but hot will dry faster. Some like to add a touch of dish detergent. Follow with a good oiling and check in a few days to make sure you didn't miss anything.

Enjoy!
 
B_noser said:
Good sound advice here.
Black powder residue is very corrosive. When and if you fire your guns, thoroughly clean them soon afterward (same day - not next week). All you need is water and a tight fitting jag or mop. Cold works fine, but hot will dry faster. Some like to add a touch of dish detergent. Follow with a good oiling and check in a few days to make sure you didn't miss anything.

Enjoy!
Click to expand...

Quite right. Also read up on Black Powder shooting as there are some nuances that don't always translate between smokeless powder. For example, whether you are loading cartridges for the Snider or firing the percussion shotgun, there can be no airspace... needs compression. Note some other comments already posted in this thread (ie Mooncoon's note about the threads on the nipples for your SxS). Sam Fadala published an excellent book on the subject and of course lots of info here.

Keep yer powder dry!
 
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