Help with Savage 1899 ID

Kilo Charlie

Kilo Charlie

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I was sure I had an old 1899F, but our resident Savage guy (Mad Dog, who else?) tells me it ain't so. Anyone know what I have?
Straight grip, 22" tapered, lightweight barrel, Schnabel forend, "D" on lever boss, grooved trigger, takedown, slightly curved steel buttplate with horizontal grooves and Savage logo at the bottom. It's marked "Savage 1899 Model" on the forward ring of the receiver. Serial number 2447XX, which, according to Savage99.com, makes year of manufacture 1923. Chambered in .250-3000.
An identical rifle appears in my 16th Edition Gun Traders' Guide as a Savage Model 99F, and the description reads, "99F Featherweight (I)...Pre-WWII type. Takedown. Specs same as 99E, except weight about 6 1/2 lbs. The 99E is listed as a solid-frame rifle with a 22" barrel, and the accompanying photo is a curved-grip rifle.
Anyone know for certain?
 
O.k., lets try this with visuals.

This is my 1899F, notice the saddle ring and solid frame.

IM000915.JPG


This is an early version 99F, T/D.

99F%20early.jpg


These are my late model 99F's one pre-mil one post-mil.

99fs.JPG


Confusing isn't it?:) ;)
 
The reason yours is stamped 1899 is because it's a transition rifle. The catalogs don't depict any letter designations till 1922, thats when Savage started listing the models with letters. Your 99F is a confusing subject because Savage still used the "1899" stamp on the receiver ring even though in the catalogs they are referred to as 99F's. The B's, F's and H's were the hardest hit by this confusing mess until a couple years later when the correct 99 stamp was used.
 
Capgun, there are two styles of this T/D model, the F with a straight stock and the G with the pistol grip. Some of the 99F's had checkering and some didn't.

Doug used to have a really nice 99F in 22 H.P. that he sold to Dusty if I remember correctly. I've got some good pics of it around here somewhere.
 
Sounds like a 99F--straight grip takedown. E was straight grip solid frame, and the G was a pistol grip td with checkering. The pre-war F was only checked for a short time as I recall-just before the war (1938-1940? only). Pre war E's seem to be much harder to find.

44Bore
 
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The only real thing that confuses me here Jim is that the trigger is grooved.

Never heard of the 99F early version having one, they were used on late version 250-3000's and then kept on being used on the early version G's. I'm guessing they had so many on hand that they started using them up on the F's as well.
 
As MDog knows I have had debates? on this subject before:D

With Sav as many others there are NO RULES except as each collecter prefers to see them!

For instance I have a 22hp with Ser#223### with no model marking on it.
I have a 250 ser#233### with "Model 1899" marking on it.
Both straightgrip stocks, T/D with no checkering.
Call the hp a 99-F if you like. There is NO "Model 99" on the ring as the books say there should be!
The 250 while newer! is marked "Model 1899" some say it's too is a Model 99 but call me boneheaded but I figure if Savage marks it as a "Model 1899" not a 99 who am I to argue??

"The only real thing that confuses me here Jim is that the trigger is grooved."
MDog, all three of these guns have the grooved trigger!

Another 250 ser#219 I have has pistol grip, T/D, & checkering.
It has no "Model 1899" on the rec ring. It is exactly like the 1899 on pg 3-28 &3-29 of Murray's book! He calls it a Model 1899 250-3000 Savage Rifle, so I will to, although it has NO "Model 1899 or 99" on it.

Confused??? yet???
 
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If it's a PG with that low of a serial address it should be a model 1899 250-3000 with the savage logo on the toe of the buttplate, no model designation with a letter for that gun, just a 250-3000.
 
MadDog said:
I'd call the 219### a 250-3000 as well Randy but you still doubt us on the other two don't ya?;)
Click to expand...

WELL a little :D

I agree with the last one it's deff a 1899 250-3000!
but the second one :rolleyes:
"I have a 250 ser#233### with "Model 1899" marking on it.
Both straightgrip stocks, T/D with no checkering."

Murray states on 3-41 that these "99-F" models have
"Savage Model 99" stamped on the frame.
Mine doesn't:eek: it's deff stamped "1899"

I tend to think if Savage calls it a 1899 &
it's stamped "Model 1899" I find it hard to understand self proclaimed experts :confused:
(which includes D. Murray) opinions when they say Naw it's not a 1899 it's a 99???
So please explain your reasoning for calling it a 99-F ??


Now the first one..the 22HP, it's shown very clearly in Murrays book pg 3-26&7
& he clearly calls it a 1899-H Feathweight Rifle.
He also in no place on either page says it stamped 1899 or 99!
Why would you call it a 99-F??

Sorry you other guys for hyjacking this thread!
Just tryin to straighten out the DOG
 
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Here we go again, how long did this last for at the campfire, 2 or 3 weeks?

Your not hijacking this thread, this is what this whole thread is about.

Murrays first book was written in 1977. The book has had a great influence on what we know about the Savage levers and what we call them. But, we need to remember that it is just a reference book and subject to error and personal interpretation. As Murray states on page 3-3, the early models were identified only with a description of it's characteristics. At the time there was no "Model 1899-A", etc. identifier. It was not til about 1905 that the telegraph and cable code words were added. From these code words came the model identifying letters (around 1922) that we currently use. It is easier to reference a model letter than a description. Murray set up his book that way and we as students use them, as well.

Model identifiers are pretty clear till after WWI when Savage decided to modernize the 1899 name by making changes and renaming it as the model 99. The model 1899! became the 99A, the 1899A T/D became the 99B, etc. What is not clear is just when the change occured and how does one know if it is a model 1899A T/D or a 99B.

The best references I have found are Savage catalogs. The most beneficial on this subject are the #61, #62 and #63. In the #61 (1920-21) the 1899 models are by description: regular rifle, solid and take down (T/D); saddle gun, solid and T/D; Featherweight T/D; 22 Savage H.P. T/D and the 250-3000. A later (1921) price list for the #61 includes the new model 1921 shotgun and a model 1899 300 cal P/G, checkered rifle (were there any of these made before the 99G? Also should note that the Featherweight is only offered in T/D version unlike before the war when it (1899H) was available in solid and T/D.

In the #62 (1922) catalog all models are still listed as model 1899's but letter identifiers have been added. It is requested in the catalog that when ordering, one is to use the letter disignator. The regular rifle is now the 1899A and 1899B (this is the A T/D not the octagon barreled version); the saddle rifle is now the 1899C and D (not the 1/2 and 1/2 or the musket); Featherweights are now the 1899F (not the carbine) and newly added model 1899E and the model 250-3000 is now the 1899G with all the other calibers added.

With the #63 (1923) catalog the identifiers stay the same but the model changes from 1899 to 99's.
I can understand why Murray elected to go back in time and add the letter designators to the early rifles. Also ignoring the 1922 use of 1899 rather than the new "99" model designation. I'm glad he did! The one area I don't agree with and which might clear some confusion is with the introduction of the 99F and the 99B. In the book they are listed as being 1920. I disagree. The catalogs do not make the distinction till 1922, the same time as the addition of the D, E and G. Somewhere around 23X,### range. We have the serial for the 250-3000 to model G change and I think the others will be around that serial range also. I would guess I probably lost the larger number of you but maybe the ones that are advanced enough to question the 1899AT/D vs 99B and 1899H vs 99F will figure it out.
Click to expand...

So if you've got this what two models are these?

1899card%20002.jpg


The only way to know for certain is to dig up A.W. and wake him up so we'll all know but if we go by Murrays then I stand by my last posts without a doubt.
 
Nice little spot of info :) Clears up nothin thou!

So then my question is my 22hp a 1899 or a 99 ?
It's serialed in the 99-F series
but not marked as it should be according to F series"
It is excatly like the 1899-H featherweight 22hp & marked as 1899!

Now is the straight stocked 250 a 99 or a 1899 ??
It's also clearly serial'd in the 99-F range but also clearly marked "Model 1899" where it should be stamped 99 according to the F series!
It's also in the 1899 250-3000 serial range although some of the features are diff!

Which then if your not confused enough :D :D
Let's look at the agreed upon 1899 250-3000 I have !!
It's agreed to be such! but has no barrel marked "Savge High Pressure Steel
as it should have Model 1899 "

Ahh MadDog I wish we could sit to-gether with the guns in hand
& really get into it :mad: :p :) :rolleyes: :cool: :eek: :)
 
I usually go by Murrays but if that fails I go to the sights although Savage sucked at using the correct sights on the right rifles.

Murray should not have included original sights in his book because Savage had the problem of running out of things and just jamming other things from a different shelf on. My 1899A in 32-40 has a Marbles ivory bead on it when I got it, was gonna replace it and then was told they were standard for an 1899A that was factory equipped with a tang sight. There are so many variables with these damn guns it's not even funny, thats why I just go by what Murray states, if we don't use the book then we are just shooting in the dark.

I used the pic as an example, it's from my 1900 catalog. I don't think anyone here would disagree with me when I say it's an 1899A and an 1899B yet if you go by what Savage has written it's just a round barreled 26" solid frame rifle or the octagon 26" solid frame rifle. Savage never designated the model letters back then, and when they did they buggered it up by putting letters to rifles that were to close in appearance to actually justify the model designation without getting it lettered. Have you gotten your rifles lettered Randy? That would clear up alot of questions as to what model it is.

Your 250-3000 is clear, the other two are to far up in the serial range to be called 1899's yet Savage was still using the 1899 stamp. I'd have to go with 99F's but I know you don't like that.

Your right though, sitting down with them is alot different than trying to figure it out over the net.;) :)
 
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"So if you've got this what two models are these?"

Well in my opinion :confused:

If it's marked 1899 it's a 1899 -hex is B or 1899-B
-round is A or 1899-A

If however they are marked "Savage
Model 99" on the ring
round is a 99-B

Have you ever seen a 26" hex in a 99?
Serial after about 200,000??
 
No, they stopped making the B's and C's after 175,000 but thats not the point, the point I'm making is that it could have model 85746 on it but you can't call it a model A,B, or C back then because they weren't designated by Savage till 1922. Yet we do call them A's B's and C's because it's easier to know what were talking about if were using Murrays.
 
"Have you gotten your rifles lettered Randy?"

Nope..who letters Savage? & by what info??:confused:

You call one model a 99-F yet it is stamped 1899!

If you owned an original Chevy with NOVA marked on the fender, would you then turn around & call it a Camaro :confused:

I like to go by Murray too, but who says his dates, models etc... are completly correct.
I also like to think what's marked ON THE GUN is what it is!
It is hard to argue that logic:D
 
senior said:
I like to go by Murray too, but who says his dates, models etc... are completly correct.
Click to expand...

100% completely agree, I've found lots of mistakes with the book but it's all we've got to go by.

To letter your Savage 1895, 1899 write to:

Mr. John T. Callahan
Savage Arms Historian
53 Old Quarry Rd
Westfield, MA
01085

Cost is $25 per rifle
Send serial number and any questions you have. Usually takes 3-4 weeks, only 3 at a time, he's swamped.

Here's one of my 1895 letters. Of course your letter will have the model designation on it, this 1895 never had a model designation, to old.
scan0004.jpg
 
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MY Bad
I understand what you mean now!

But I think until we have some info put out by Savage & made readily available then we have to use Murrays as best we can!

It's obvious thou there's overlaps in serial #s from one model to another.
There's bound to be overlaps in features as well!
When that happens I'm inclined to use the model designations (eg 1899) & gun features, sites, etc..to fit it in -even thou it may fit in another model designation according to serial ##.
 
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