HELP with scope elevation problems on my Norc!

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Northman999

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Fellows,

I hit the range today with my Norc and my first expensive scope (Zeiss Conquest 4.5-14x50) and ran into a showstopper of a problem when trying to sight it.

Even when using the full range of elevation, I could not get rounds any closer to bullseye than a full 6 inches low at 25 yards (totally off paper at 50 etc). Windage was right on.

I've never run into anything like this before. Here's a pic of my rig if it helps.

M14Scope1.jpg


The only thing I can think of is the scope is physically too high off the bore (3 inches center to center) and maybe I need to use lower rings. This make sense to anyone else? I had to go with high rings due to low/med rings not providing enough clearance between my scope and scope rail, but I could trim the front of the rail back as I never mount anything that far forward anyways and then go with significantly lower rings. Might this solve my problem?

Other suggestions?

P.S I had a different scope on this rifle just a while back and it was fine. I just wanted to upgrade from my $99 Leapers.
 
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Welcome to the real world of M305.

The scope mounting system is cr.p.

I have tried 3 scope mounts so far and have encountered centering issues with all of them. It's a hard beast to scope.

It's a battle rifle, and was never intended to be scoped. Thus our delema.

The 3, I have tried:

John Mason
Promag
Basset (the best so far)
 
Thanks fellows.

Petrock - Nothing wrong with the Leapers really, but my M14 is my pet rifle and I use it for everything and so I wanted a good scope on it that I could rely on, basically forever.

Gnmontey- My last scope was totally fine on this rifle. I'm really hoping to sort this out.

Do you guys think my basic idea of lowering the scope closer to the rifle itself will allow me to get on target? I will cut away part of my mount to make this happen if I have to, but if I do it and it doesn't work, I won't be too impressed with myself. So far, I'm only guessing that this will be a solution.

Does anyone out there KNOW?
 
Set your turrets to zero and bore sight @ 100yds. That will decide the issue.

These things are real hard on scopes. Don't be surprised if you scope has cr.pped out.
 
gnmontey said:
Welcome to the real world of M305.

The scope mounting system is cr.p.

I have tried 3 scope mounts so far and have encountered centering issues with all of them. It's a hard beast to scope.

It's a battle rifle, and was never intended to be scoped. Thus our delema.

The 3, I have tried:

John Mason
Promag
Basset (the best so far)
Click to expand...

Very much true. The M14 is not an easy rifle to scope, but can be done. I have only ever seen the ARMs and the Smith mount hold zero. I have seen Basset, Marstar, Springfield, and B-square all fail to hold zero though.

If you are running out of elevation, the most likely cause is that the mount you have is not aligned. It is a classic problem as many M14s do not have a true mount point.

The first thing I would try is to loosen the side bolt, and push the mount down at the front of the mount lightly while tightening the mount bolt. Hopefully there is enough play in the mount/receiver interface for this to work. It is likely that it would only be a short term/low round count solution though. I would recommend switching to a more solid mount though. At least that rules the mount out. After that, the next weakest link in your setup would likely be the rifle itself -- the mount point is not always machined well.
 
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You might want to try an ARMs 18 mount. They mount far lower than the set up you have pictured. You scope also appears to be mounted far too back. Scope should be mounted as close to where the rear sight is as possible. I bet you have no cheek weld with this set up. You can always use what the "Snipers" in nam used, carpen taped to the stock to give you some sort of cheek weld!

Scott
 
I don't think you can fix the problem with lower rings. The scope base isn't parallel with the barrel is the problem. It doesn't take much. If you can't find and fix the problem (rear of the scope base needs to be elevated), and you are really stubborn, you could use burris rings with inserts that offset the rear of the scope higher.

You could test my theory by placing an appropriate diameter rod in the barrel and levelling the gun in a vice, then placing a level on the scope base.
 
Northman, I ran in the same problem about 2 weeks ago when I decided to set my new scope.

After talking with an old man at the range which I was told he was very good in precision shooting. He suggested to put a "shim", a little piece of paper on the lower part of the ring to elevate the back of the scope slightly to compensate the heigh of the mount.

I have yet to try it out again but for what I've seen so far, I will be able to set the scope right with that. My pre-sighting was very good around and I still have room to fine tune once I get to the range.

Hope it helps!
 
OutL4w said:
Northman, I ran in the same problem about 2 weeks ago when I decided to set my new scope.

After talking with an old man at the range which I was told he was very good in precision shooting. He suggested to put a "shim", a little piece of paper on the lower part of the ring to elevate the back of the scope slightly to compensate the heigh of the mount.

I have yet to try it out again but for what I've seen so far, I will be able to set the scope right with that. My pre-sighting was very good around and I still have room to fine tune once I get to the range.

Hope it helps!
Click to expand...

Oooops I didn't noticed Grizzlypeg so i'll just say +1 on that ;)
 
Just make sure before you try any sort of bandaid approach, that the scope base is correctly installed and solid. No point shimming or otherwise messing with rings if the base is going to shift in elevation.
 
Welcome to M14 receiver geometry! The guys have suggested a) shimming the mounts or rings; b) changing mounts; and c) building up the cheekrest.

a) be careful not to dent the scope tube
b) not much effect on vertical problems, but 'cant' will start slewing your groups diagonally at any great distance
c) I've never liked taking up recoil on the sharp edge of my chin - you'll probably enjoy shooting more, and be able to concentrate on consistency (which will eliminate vertical stringing when your head goes into a different place for every shot).

All three come into play. Good luck.
 
Been there done that.

ARMS 18 mount, Falcon 4-14 scope. It zeroed ok, and I was able to use it out to 600m at one of Hungry's shoots at milcun. But I was not happy that it required alot of elevation just to zero at 100m.

Best fix is to get the Burris signature Zee rings. The 30mm rings come with 0 inserts and with 2 sets of +10 inserts. Just install the inserts to raise the eyepiece +10 and drop the obj bell -10.
 
I'm sold. Will give them a try!

w w w.snipercentral.com/burrismounts.htm

So why do all of these mounts have an elevation issue? Is the problem the mount or the receiver?
 
if you have see thru rings,put it in a gun vice and put the cross hairs where the irons hit.start of with 00 of course and move the mount up or down with the front screw.in the sticky here it says that no mount is guaranteed to fit an m14 and i believe them,but once you get it to, tighten the crap out of everything and it should be okay:)
 
gnmontey said:
So why do all of these mounts have an elevation issue? Is the problem the mount or the receiver?
Click to expand...

Some of it is the norc receiver, some of it the m14 design itself. IMO, most is that many of the m14 accessories on the market are not designed to actually be used. They are just there to look cool, and ultimately turn your m14 into an airsoft trophy.
 
carbonrod said:
Some of it is the norc receiver, some of it the m14 design itself. IMO, most is that many of the m14 accessories on the market are not designed to actually be used. They are just there to look cool, and ultimately turn your m14 into an trophy.
Click to expand...

John Mason, Promag, and Basset are all well documented as true M14 mounts (not airsoft). The flaw must be in the rifle. I have had elevation and windage issues with all except the Basset (Elevation issues only). Have not been compelled to purchase a $250 mount (ARMS 18 or eqiv) just to encounter the same issues. Maybe I'm wrong? What's the solution?
 
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