Here's one for ya
- Thread starter vega
- Start date
That question has made the RCMP verifiers cry. Quite serious about that.
This is the most common answer I've gotten, though it is NOT a rule by any means.
On the majority of original style muzzle loaders, the breech plug is considered the receiver, since the barrel mounts onto it and the stock is also mounted onto it.... sortof.
This concept goes to hell on any gun with a hook breech, or a simple plug in a flat ended barrel, or a solid barrel.... and some other part is named the receiver.
At least that's how I understand it.
This is the most common answer I've gotten, though it is NOT a rule by any means.
On the majority of original style muzzle loaders, the breech plug is considered the receiver, since the barrel mounts onto it and the stock is also mounted onto it.... sortof.
This concept goes to hell on any gun with a hook breech, or a simple plug in a flat ended barrel, or a solid barrel.... and some other part is named the receiver.
At least that's how I understand it.
- Location
- vancouver island
modified antique
i understand from various discussions is that concensus says the breech is the part required to be antique-therefore the breech plug is the key component. barrels have not always stayed the same as many early military pieces became 20 guage foraging guns but still remain antique. just points out how silly the regs have become for true m/l antiques.
i understand from various discussions is that concensus says the breech is the part required to be antique-therefore the breech plug is the key component. barrels have not always stayed the same as many early military pieces became 20 guage foraging guns but still remain antique. just points out how silly the regs have become for true m/l antiques.
Thanks guys. Bowie put it best. I was just wondering in general. If I had a ML and put a new barrel on it is it still an antique? Probably eh? What if I put a new lock on it? Probably eh? But if I put a new barrel and a new lock, and a new....? Gets sticky eh? So if it comes down to the breach plug, that means I could get a verifiably antique breach plug, build a rifle around it with all new components, lock, stock and barrel, and it would be an "antique." I can understand why it could make a grown RCMP verifier weep.
But anyhow, is the consensus that I can mount a new barrel or a new lock if it becomes necessary and still be in antique land?
But anyhow, is the consensus that I can mount a new barrel or a new lock if it becomes necessary and still be in antique land?
As long as a modern manufacture muzzle loader sports a flint lock or matchlock and you do not replace either with a percussion lock then it does not require registration.
If it is an 'antique' arm and currently sports a flintlock you may replace it with a percussion. I would suggest you line the exisitng barrel to avoid confusion and to avoid the need to fit a square peg in a roundish hole.
As these go intent is usually apparent. If you faithfully restore an HBC trade gun with modern parts you probabley will be ok. If you build yourself a modern percussion gun and attach a 300 year old stock your intent is obvious.
The above is worth about 2 cents and should be treated accordingly.
If it is an 'antique' arm and currently sports a flintlock you may replace it with a percussion. I would suggest you line the exisitng barrel to avoid confusion and to avoid the need to fit a square peg in a roundish hole.
As these go intent is usually apparent. If you faithfully restore an HBC trade gun with modern parts you probabley will be ok. If you build yourself a modern percussion gun and attach a 300 year old stock your intent is obvious.
The above is worth about 2 cents and should be treated accordingly.
There is no definition of what constitutes the receiver of a conventional lock, stock and barrel muzzleloader in the law. There are various suggestions, but these are only opinions, no matter whose opinions they are.
When this business first started, I 'phoned and asked. Couldn't get a definitive answer, because there isn't one.
To the best on my knowledge there are no case law precedents on the subject.
Personally, I think it best that there is no hard and fast definition - because antiques being what they are, there will be exceptions.
Not criticizing anything said in this thread, but I find the suggestion that a breechplug is a receiver to be just plain silly. Some ml firearms don't even have separate breechplugs, but they are certainly firearms.
In my opinion, it could make sense that a breeched barrel is the essence of a ml firearm. If it has provision for percussion ignition, it is a percusssion firearm; if there is only a touch hole it isn't.
Now with respect to rebuilt antiques.....
If it is restocked is it still antique. I would think so.
If it is relocked? Still antique.
Rebarrelled? Antique.
New stock and lock? Antique.
New lock and barrel. Not antique.
New barrel and stock? Not antique.
But these are only opinions, and you know what they say about opinions.
When this business first started, I 'phoned and asked. Couldn't get a definitive answer, because there isn't one.
To the best on my knowledge there are no case law precedents on the subject.
Personally, I think it best that there is no hard and fast definition - because antiques being what they are, there will be exceptions.
Not criticizing anything said in this thread, but I find the suggestion that a breechplug is a receiver to be just plain silly. Some ml firearms don't even have separate breechplugs, but they are certainly firearms.
In my opinion, it could make sense that a breeched barrel is the essence of a ml firearm. If it has provision for percussion ignition, it is a percusssion firearm; if there is only a touch hole it isn't.
Now with respect to rebuilt antiques.....
If it is restocked is it still antique. I would think so.
If it is relocked? Still antique.
Rebarrelled? Antique.
New stock and lock? Antique.
New lock and barrel. Not antique.
New barrel and stock? Not antique.
But these are only opinions, and you know what they say about opinions.
- Location
- vancouver island
antiques
for what it is worth, in the world of historic race cars ,the chassis plate is the only original bit really necessary-everything else is replaceable. breech plug plug seems to be a parallel. regards
for what it is worth, in the world of historic race cars ,the chassis plate is the only original bit really necessary-everything else is replaceable. breech plug plug seems to be a parallel. regards
That's exactly it - the most common answer I've gotten is breech plug, however, as I wrote, it falls to hell as soon as the gun doesn't have a breech plug, or has a hook breech, etc etc etc.
Well, that all certainly clears it up for me.
And, fwiw, my intention is not to try to circumvent any law, just wanting to be forearmed in case any gun I have or acquire needs new parts to shoot decently. Our gun laws are just so danged silly.
And, fwiw, my intention is not to try to circumvent any law, just wanting to be forearmed in case any gun I have or acquire needs new parts to shoot decently. Our gun laws are just so danged silly.
Weapontech
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- On my way to Hell in a handbasket
This has been discussed in numerous threads, and I have to agree with Tiriaq once again, and I will use one particular example to support it;
Using the example of modern reproduction flintlock muzzle-loading pistols, they can be bought, sold and owned without a license - as long as the vent-hole is not drilled. Once drilled, it must be registered. You only need to go to the Loyalist or Military Heritage websites for definitive proof of this information.
As for parts replacement - and this goes to show you how info gets around when there are no definitive answers; An older gent who has been collecting and restoring M/L antiques for years once told me that a CFC tech told him, (while only guessing apparently), that you cannot replace any part of an antique M/L firearm that constitute the main firing components without it becoming "modern". I'm only assuming this would include the lock, breech and barrel. But in the final analysis....who the heck knows? Certainly not the people who are supposed to have the information!!
