Hi-Power .40 S&W: disappointing first day

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Rick

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So... took my new HP out for a first day workout, inspection, breakin, etc.

Fired 100 of Curt Thomas's IPSC match loads (180 gr. truncated cone) through it at about 20 yards. "Groups", if you can call them that, were on the order of 8". I've known Curt casually through PPC competition for about fifteen years or so, and I know his quality control is pretty good.

Looking at the cardboard PPC target, both Bill Leeper and myself felt that the bullet holes showed evidence of keyholing. Keyholing in a factory new pistol? Some 180 gr. lead SWC loads wouldn't even feed with a full magazine - and showed equally pathetic grouping ability, even if it was a load straight out of the book, no load development.

Before I freak out here, has anybody else heard of similar problems with a new .40 S&W Hi Power? The keyholing appearance I can't figure out - 180 gr. bullets should stabilize just fine in a factory .40 S&W barrel.

Getting nervous here... btw, I slugged the barrel with Cerrosafe and Bill miked it at .404" bore diameter. Little big, but nothing that should cause these kinds of problems. Visual inspection of the barrel is that it looks clean, no bulges, jugs, etc - looks new, which of course it is.

Ideas? Thoughts? Prior experiences? My previous Hi Power in 9mm was very accurate... my confidence is shaken.
 
RePete said:
The bullet may have be swagged down during crimping. I had this probem with my BHP9.

Try a different load, but stick with FMJ or CMJ.
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Wow....
I must admit, I would have tried a variety of loads before I hit the panic
button!
Not all guns digest or like all loads...
Try a variety of weights and loads...start with a selection of commercial stuff.
It it STILL doesn't shoot worth a s**t, then you've got a problem.
 
I'd try some factory ammunition before assuming the HP has a problem. I ALWAYS shoot a box or two of factory ammunition through a new pistol to check for function before shooting my reloads.
JOOC, Is it a "genuine" Browning HP or a clone?
 
I confess that I have never fired lead in my BHP 40 S&W. With this said my BHP is reliable and accurate using 180gr jacketed bullets. The only 40 S&W pistol I have shot LSWC bullets in is my Witness and it likes them. Regards, Richard :D
 
Are these lead bullets ones you cast and sized yourself? Cast bullets should be sized .001 larger than bore diameter. I size my 9MM cast lead bullets to .357. Lead bullets cast to bore size ie .355 in 9MM will tumble and lead your bore as well. Same thing will happen in .40cal. Might be worth your while to have someone slug your bore to determine what you should be sizing your bullets to.

Take Care

Bob
 
My first SIG 226 .40 cal. was the same way. At 20 m I was lucky to get them on paper. Thought the barrel was screwed, sights on wrong maybe all kinds of crazy thoughts.

Tryed a jacketed bulletand they were all in the 10 ring. Different Ammo can make all the difference !!
 
Put 500 threw it with some maintenance. If shooting crappy after that you got a problem.

I first got a TRP Operator that shot 6" at 20. By about 200 round count the pistol was the most accurate pistol I ever shot or have seen off of a benchrest.

D_
 
Okay, from the top:

The commercial reloads used:
Kurt Thomas was one of the best PPC shooters in Canada - certainly one of the best Distinguished shooters - when he had time to compete. I mention that to underscore that he knows the importance of quality ammunition. He has always sold very high quality bullets for competitive pistol shooting and tells me he accuracy tests all lots of the loaded ammunition he now produces for police and retail. I have no reason to suspect that his bullets have dropped in quality, or that his quality control is anything less than rigorous. Is his ammunition as accurate as factory Federal or Winchester ammunition? Probably not - but I also highly doubt it groups 6" larger than factory stuff at 20 yards either (which is what I am getting versus what you would expect from factory target ammo). Yes, it is possible I got some bad ammunition from Kurt - but pretty unlikely. I retained three rounds and will get the micrometer out and start checking things when I get a chance. Kurt is a great guy to deal with, incidentally, and his business is worth checking out:
http://www3.telus.net/public/kathomas/index.html

The handloads were a hard 180 gr. SWC that miked at .401". The SWC are commercial lead bullets and my electronic scale and verniers say that sample bullets from the rest of the box are very uniform in size and weight.

No, I won't be sticking with the "easiest to feed" stuff. This is not only a handgun that will be used just for recreation in Canada; it will be a carry gun as I do have a CCW permit and I do live a good part of the time in the US where it is legal for me to carry concealed - or in fact openly if I so choose. Once things settle down, one way or another a carry load based around Nosler's 135 gr. hollow point will be developed. If it won't group and function properly, then it will go away for some custom work and a custom barrel if necessary. I'd prefer it didn't come to that, obviously...

I'm not exactly hitting the panic button yet, but let's face it - 8" groups with bullets keyholing in the target at slightly less than 20 yards, using what is almost certainly quality ammunition, does not exactly inspire confidence that there's just a few minor details to work out. I've probably purchased or won a dozen new handguns over the last couple of decades and I've NEVER seen anything this poor in the first trial of a new handgun. Nothing even close.

The HP is a new, out of the box pistol. It's the fourth BHP I've owned, but first in 40 S&W. I've never had a new one that shot remotely as poorly as this one first time out of the box. The other three were 9mm's, and they all shot pretty good right from the first magazine fired out of them.

Richard, just to give me a general idea, what kind of accuracy are you getting out of your BHP 40 S&W? I understand, of course, that a BHP isn't exactly a bullseye gun, but I really have no idea what "average accuracy" out of these particular models is.

And Bob, as mentioned in the initial post, I already slugged the bore and it measured out at .404". A little on the big size, but I wouldn't expect that to have the copper jacketed bullets keyholing; the hard cast commercial bullets didn't do any worse - or better - as far as keyholing is concerned. The commercially cast SWC bullets measure .401" right on the money. That is a bit of a concern with the bore size as they are pretty hard and I haven't stuck one in my LBT hardness tester yet to find out what Brinell number they are and as a result what operating pressures would be required for them to obdurate. Except for a few moulds for an old Webley and Browning pocket pistol that I only fire a few hundred rounds out of each year, I don't cast for pistols. Too time consuming to crank out that many quality bullets each year; I reserve my fussy casting for rifles.

Thanks for the input guys. A few comments on factory ammunition. I understand the concept of trying it with factory ammo and I appreciate that's what Browning would use to test it. And of course I understand the concept of different guns like different bullets, different loads, etc and so forth. However... this pistol will not be used with commercial ammunition so how it functions and performs with commercial ammunition is irrelevant to me, even if Browning wouldn't see it that way. I can't begin to afford to purchase 6,000 or so rounds each year in factory boxes for the shooting I will probably be doing with this gun, any more than I can afford to purchase factory match ammunition for my PPC revolvers. I just ain't that flush with cash.

Anyways, I'm tied up for a few days, but I'll get an evening here to look at things a little closer and assemble some test rounds. I do have serious reservations about that oversize barrel, however...
 
Sorry to hear of the problems Rick
I have also been using Kurts ammo in both 9mm and 40SW and I must state that I have found it to be more accurate and reliable than the factory stuff. Although I have not used any of the cast loads from BDX, I had a similar problem with another supplier of cast, with a lot of key holing even at 10m. Turned out the bullets were slightly undersized and I went to jacketed at that point. No problems since.
Hope it works out for you.
Cheers:)
dB
 
For what it's worth, as well as being hypothetical in Kanada, one would be strongly advised to use factory ammunition in a gun being used in the CCW role.
The wide sweeping 'investigation',(and I use the term loosely), following an even seemingly justified shooting with anything other than factory ammo would not be taken well by the authorities: not to mention providing counsel in the inevitable civil suit with extra 'ammunition' of their own.
Just my $0.02 worth.....
 
foxbat said:
For what it's worth, as well as being hypothetical in Kanada, one would be strongly advised to use factory ammunition in a gun being used in the CCW role.
The wide sweeping 'investigation',(and I use the term loosely), following an even seemingly justified shooting with anything other than factory ammo would not be taken well by the authorities: not to mention providing counsel in the inevitable civil suit with extra 'ammunition' of their own.
Just my $0.02 worth.....
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+1. I would not trust my life to handloaded ammunition, no matter how good the quality is, never mind the fodder that you'd give to a prosecutor for using "custom made killing ammunition". ;)
I think you're misunderstanding the gyst of what most folks here are saying, btw...nobody's suggesting that the Kurt Thomas reloads are not quality ammo...it may just not be the right ammunition for your BHP. It would certainly be worth a $10 box of factory FMJ ammo to determine if your BHP is a "lemon" or not. ;)
 
daBear said:
Sorry to hear of the problems Rick
I have also been using Kurts ammo in both 9mm and 40SW and I must state that I have found it to be more accurate and reliable than the factory stuff. Although I have not used any of the cast loads from BDX, I had a similar problem with another supplier of cast, with a lot of key holing even at 10m. Turned out the bullets were slightly undersized and I went to jacketed at that point. No problems since.
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I've been buying from Kurt pretty much since he first got into the BDX business many years back. He doesn't make the bullets of course, but BDX/Montana Gold have always had a very high quality product (and they're about fifteen minutes from my new home in Montana, incidentally). I loaded some of these same bullets for a buddies 10mm revolver (too bad Smith doesn't make those anymore), and they ripped the center right out of a PPC center - as they should. So it ain't this lot of bullets. I also talked with Kurt a couple of hours ago and he confirmed he does accuracy/function testing on every lot that he distributes.

However, it is interesting you also experienced keyholing, because I have never experienced it with a handgun before or spoken with anybody who has. We're talking quality firearms with quality bullets, of course.

My thinking keeps coming back to that .404" bore in the barrel... four thou oversize. Sure as hell can't be conducive to best accuracy!
 
Well, we're getting off topic here - but what the heck, I started the thread and it's interesting, so let's run with it.

foxbat said:
For what it's worth, as well as being hypothetical in Kanada, one would be strongly advised to use factory ammunition in a gun being used in the CCW role.
The wide sweeping 'investigation',(and I use the term loosely), following an even seemingly justified shooting with anything other than factory ammo would not be taken well by the authorities: not to mention providing counsel in the inevitable civil suit with extra 'ammunition' of their own.
Just my $0.02 worth.....
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Gentlemen, this is urban legend.

I got my CCW while down in Utah; my qualification course was taught by Clark Aposhian, who sits on the board who reviews CCW licenses and chairs the Utah Instructors Network, and Mitch Vilos - an attorney who specializes in gun law and CCW cases in particular (and who has authored books on firearms use and self defense). I think it is fair to suggest that both of these people have a knowledge of firearms use in self defense which is well above the norm.

I don't recall all the specifics when this urban legend came up in the class - which was a private one taught for Utah State assemblymen, congressmen, and senators, incidentally, so there were a few lawyers present. But the bottom line was that this was a bogus concern. Mitch Vilos pointed out that this certainly could happen, but any half competent lawyer could easily counter such arguments by raising just as many where handloads could be claimed to be preferable. The closing comment was that you will probably be arrested just about anywhere following a defensive shooting anyways, but the presence or lack of handloads in the shooting will have nothing to do with it. It will come down to the circumstances of the shooting.

And, just so you know Alzheimers doesn't have me in its' grip:
http://www.john-ross.net/hldefense.htm

Six Star said:
+1. I would not trust my life to handloaded ammunition, no matter how good the quality is, never mind the fodder that you'd give to a prosecutor for using "custom made killing ammunition".
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In twenty some odd years of shooting government supplied commercial ammunition, whether for practice, working as a firearms instructor, or in competition, I've had FAR fewer of my handloads fail to go "bang" than commercial ammunition that failed to fire when the trigger was pulled.

Furthermore, and relevant to that, I have to do statistical analysis on a regular basis as part of my profession. Statistically speaking, whether it is a factory round or handloads assembled with proper procedures, the chance of a round NOT firing in that one instance where you are shooting in self defense is so small that it doesn't even begin to approach statistical significance. I'd hate to even try to do the math to put it in comparison with the chance of being struck by lightening, for example.

If I ever get that concerned with "what ifs", I'll probably end up carrying a backup CCW gun. And an ASP. And a tactical flashlight. And a combat knife. Accompanied by two Brazilian jujitsu experts as bodyguards. I won't criticize people who only feel truly ready with factory ammo, a back up gun, etc... but it just isn't a concern to me.

I think you're misunderstanding the gyst of what most folks here are saying, btw...nobody's suggesting that the Kurt Thomas reloads are not quality ammo...it may just not be the right ammunition for your BHP. It would certainly be worth a $10 box of factory FMJ ammo to determine if your BHP is a "lemon" or not. ;)
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No, I understand what people are saying here. But this problem with accuracy is several orders of magnitude beyond the results you could expect from fussiness over ammunition. An inch of spread per yard of distance - that's a general rule of thumb for spread of shot out of a shotgun. This is a pistol...
 
hey rick, i just bought a new browning hp in 40 S&w last month,i had only shot factory federal 180 gr fmj out of it,just to get some brass to reload,but groups at 20 yds were about 3.5 to 4 inches.i am not sure how much more to expect from the factory ammo,i thought that my groups were poor at that. the bore is .400 on the dot though,seems that there is quite a bit of range in bore sizes,that could account for some of the poor accuracy,but like the other guy, i have never tried lead either,maybe my gun would react similarily to yours
 
Rick, I agree with u totally. Kurt is top notch as is his product. I too have been a supporter for quite a while now. Like you say, the oversize bore is suspicious, which could have the same result I experienced with an undersized bullet. No doubt trying a bit of factory or a jacketed product is worth a try. If results are the same, I think you will have found your answer.
Good luck
dB:)
 
Why in the world would you want 180 gr loads for a CCW gun anyways? They're the least effective loading you can get in .40 S&W for stopping power bases on police shootings. The 155's have a much better rating and the 135's absolutly rock......

Rick said:
.

No, I won't be sticking with the "easiest to feed" stuff. This is not only a handgun that will be used just for recreation in Canada; it will be a carry gun as I do have a CCW permit and I do live a good part of the time in the US where it is legal for me to carry concealed - or in fact openly if I so choose. Once things settle down, one way or another a carry load based around Nosler's 135 gr. hollow point will be developed. If it won't group and function properly, then it will go away for some custom work and a custom barrel if necessary. I'd prefer it didn't come to that, obviously...

...
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Speer Gold Dots... all you need!

BTW, I would try some factory ammo, as it seems apparent that your gun doesnt like these reloads.
 
Cocked&Locked said:
Why in the world would you want 180 gr loads for a CCW gun anyways? They're the least effective loading you can get in .40 S&W for stopping power bases on police shootings. The 155's have a much better rating and the 135's absolutly rock......
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Just where - exactly - did you see anywhere in my message that you quoted where I spoke of using 180 grain bullets for carry purposes?

Not that I would lose any sleep whatsoever if all I had was 180 grainers, or 200 grainers, or whatever. As far as that goes, when it gets right down to it, if my only choice was the good old .38 Spl with decent ammo, I wouldn't be losing any sleep either. However... I have lots of stuff in the gun safe to choose from, and I happen to like BHP's and shoot well with them instinctively/low light.
 
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