Hi-Power .40 S&W: disappointing first day

zorro said:
hey rick, i just bought a new browning hp in 40 S&w last month,i had only shot factory federal 180 gr fmj out of it,just to get some brass to reload,but groups at 20 yds were about 3.5 to 4 inches.
So, about half the size of what mine's putting out...

i am not sure how much more to expect from the factory ammo,i thought that my groups were poor at that.
I suspect Browning will say that is within their accuracy standards for the pistol; I haven't heard back from them yet, however. My other BHP's in 9mm showed group size decreasing as the first few hundred rounds were put through them; one by quite a bit, the others not so much but still noticeable

the bore is .400 on the dot though,seems that there is quite a bit of range in bore sizes,
What made you slug yours? Just curious? I've actually never slugged one of my handguns before; I don't cast for them and have never had a problem before or felt the need to know up until this one.

i have never tried lead either,maybe my gun would react similarily to yours
Well, lead or FMJ, the results were about the same. Lead is a lot more sensitive to size problems with the ball seat primarily and the bore second.
 
USP said:
BTW, I would try some factory ammo, as it seems apparent that your gun doesnt like these reloads.
Absolutely no point whatsoever in trying factory ammunition. This handgun - like all the rest of my centerfire firearms - will rarely, if ever see a factory round.

I could try some of Federal's offerings. And if they didn't work then I could try Speers. And then maybe Cor-Bon. Or Hornady. And if I tried enough makes and weights, one of them might even prove to be amazingly accurate and capable of ripping the x out of a PPC target at 50 meters. But it wouldn't mean anything when I don't have the disposable income to buy 6000 rounds or so of factory ammunition each year just so one handgun will run properly.

Bottom line is that the same situation exists for this BHP as for all my other firearms: it will either eventually run properly and produce the required accuracy with handloads of one sort or another, or it will get farmed out to a gunsmith who can make it do that. That is, if the manufacturer won't do something about it - like, for example, S&W, who will remove the constrictions from barrel throats caused from the barrel threading... but only if you ask.

If none of that works, it will get sold to somebody who either doesn't mind the accuracy level or has the cash to feed it commercial ammunition.

All of that aside, there are lots of knowledgeable handloaders out there these days. The equipment they have available and use, the standards they apply to their ammunition, and the components they have available for reloading lead to a very high standard of ammunition. Unlike ammunition companies who must come up with loads that work acceptably in ALL makes, models, and individual guns in a caliber, the reloader only has to concentrate on finding something that ONE firearm works well with. In short, reloaders have an advantage. Given all of that, if a firearm - rifle or handgun - will only shoot acceptably with factory ammunition and performs very poorly with handloads after a reasonable load development process by a knowledgeable reloader, in my opinion there's something wrong with that firearm.
 
According to Wayne Novak the BHP supports the 40 S&W case well. My point is there is no reason not to shoot 40 S&W reloads in a BHP. Why don't I shoot 40 S&W reloads? I prefer the 9mm, 357 Sig, 10mm, and 45acp in pistols. My guess is I would put together loads going up by .01gr until I found a combination of bullet, primer, and powder the BHP likes. Regards, Richard :D
 
richardoldfield said:
According to Wayne Novak the BHP supports the 40 S&W case well. My point is there is no reason not to shoot 40 S&W reloads in a BHP. Why don't I shoot 40 S&W reloads? I prefer the 9mm, 357 Sig, 10mm, and 45acp in pistols. My guess is I would put together loads going up by .01gr until I found a combination of bullet, primer, and powder the BHP likes.

Hadn't looked, but didn't realize Wayne Novak had held forth one way or another on the BHP and .40 S&W. If things don't make a dramatic improvement, his shop is one I have in mind, along with Cylinder & Slide and one or two others. Bit premature to start looking that way just yet, however.

Fine tuning loads is down the road. But coarse trials varying primarily powders and bullets is the beginning, to see if matters improve any. If the barrel/barrel fit is up to it, the pistol should be capable of better than 8" patterns - not to mention keyholing bullets - without trying every possible combination, one tenth of a grain at a time. Off the top of my head, if I can't find something that will group into 4" at 25 yards as a starting point, then some changes need to be made.

By the way Richard, seeing as you have a BHP and appear to be knowledgeable of the aftermarket crowd, do you know who has a website and markets Craig Speigel grips? One of the reasons I like the BHP's is I have little girlie hands, but even then I find the factory wood grips a little bit on the meaty side. The grips for my other BHP's were made by a local woman who liked to do woodwork, years ago, but she has since passed away.
 
http://www.tenring.com/stuff3.html#24 try this site for grips, I have a lot of respect for Alex Hamilton of Ten Ring Precision. Alex did my FN/FM High-Power (see below) and I couldn't be happier with anyone's work. Lastly, as a last resort is there any way to have a Bar-Sto barrel installed? Why? The 40 S&W BHP is the softest shooting 40 I have ever fired and it is a shame to have one that is inaccurate. Keep us informed with your progress. Regards, Richard :D

My FN/FM High-Power with Hagan grips:
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richardoldfield said:
Try this site for grips, I have a lot of respect for Alex Hamilton of Ten Ring Precision. Alex did my FN/FM High-Power (see below) and I couldn't be happier with anyone's work.
Thanks; I'll take a look.
Lastly, as a last resort is there any way to have a Bar-Sto barrel installed? Why? The 40 S&W BHP is the softest shooting 40 I have ever fired and it is a shame to have one that is inaccurate.
Oh yes. Bar-Sto makes barrels for the BHP in .40 S&W. A match barrel or semi drop in is $200, either way. My guess is another $100 to have a BHP guru properly fit it. I don't know if there are functioning issues with a match barrel; something that one would need to investigate first. I see they now longer make barrels for the BHP in .357 SIG, but I didn't feel a particular need for that conversion anyways. But that comes to about a third of the price of a new, in the box BHP; I would hope a person didn't have to spend that kind of money to get something better than 8" patterns with a new pistol out of the box.

KKM Precision also used to make BHP barrels and it looks like they are getting ready to do it again. But it looks like they have scaled their products back for the time being to 1911's and the Tupperware Guns. Or maybe they're just redeveloping their website and have all one could ask for, just not posted on the site yet.

There may be others...

Well, I better get some work done here today.
 
Brownings technical department just called. For you BHP owners out there:

"The acceptable maximum group size is 4" at 50 yards. The firearms should be capable of this level of performance right out of the box without any break-in period".

I think that is astonishingly good; much more than I expected. Now... I just don't know what kind of ammunition (or how many different types they try to get that) they use. But if the tech dude was correct, that is VERY acceptable accuracy to me. This is not one of my PPC guns.

Oddly enough, I could hear him flipping pages while getting his info, but he couldn't provide me with min/max dimensions for lands and grooves. Would have liked to know where the .404" barrel stood.

BTW... don't even bother phoning Browning's Canadian number. They don't have a clue as far as quality control/quality assurance standards for accuracy, sizes, etc go - they'll just tell you to send it to one of their approved service centers. I'm sure the gunsmiths at those sports stores are pretty good, but I'm also willing to bet they're not pistolsmiths. That makes me suspect an accuracy problem will result in a fix that is iffy at best, or the gun will end up getting down to the US for proper repair anyways - meaning even more delay.

Just out of curiosity, I might call a few of their service centers and ask about the accuracy and bore specs for the BHP, just to see if they have even been made aware of them and how they'd go about addressing the problem.
 
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If you have small paws, check out the Navridex Micarta grips available from Brownells for the HP - very thin!
 
tobin said:
If you have small paws, check out the Navridex Micarta grips available from Brownells for the HP - very thin!

Do they need thin head grip screws or are you good to go with the factory ones?
 
tobin said:
If you have small paws, check out the Navridex Micarta grips available from Brownells for the HP - very thin!
Already found them this morning and ordered a pair - too bad you can only have them in black or white, as I like nice woodlike stocks. Oh well, I can suffer along with black ones.

Thanks for the heads-up, however.
 
outdoors said:
Please let us know how the Navidrex grips fit as I have thought about ordering a pair for my Mark III 9mm.
I'll do that, but it might be a bit of a while because the BHP is heading back to Browning in the US as soon as I get around to it. I found the Navidrex's at Brownell's after the Google thing led me to a website of BHP shooters discussing the various aftermarket grips available. There was one other grip people were finding they liked quite a bit, but a lot of thumbs up for the Navidrex's.

Anyways, once it gets back...
 
So, spent some coin on phone bills and called around to various US Browning service centers today. Varying levels of helpfulness. For BHP owners, the distilled information is as follows:
  1. The accuracy criteria for the Browning High Power is a maximum size group of 4" at 50 yards.
  2. The service center will examine the firearm; if it is something that requires something like fitting a new barrel, Browning usually asks them to forward the firearm to them where THEIR gunsmiths will confirm the problem and do the work. The inference is that just the "easier" drop-in type work gets done at the service centers.
  3. Ergo, one is simply better off to ship the firearm directly to Browning in the first place. Unfortunately in Canada, that probably means the Canadian distributor will then ship it to Browning in the US.
This conversation was interesting. One Browning service center gunsmith is also a pistolsmith and says he does some custom BHP's and plays around doing some recreational competitive shooting. He said that he had owned 3 .40's to date, and found the accuracy deteriorated in them pretty fast. Even as a service center gunsmith, Browning had him send his guns back to them for the barrel work. The last time he asked them to send him an oversize barrel which he would fit himself, as he was a gunsmith working in a certified service center. They did that, he fitted the barrel, and the accuracy lasted much longer - but still deteriorated much sooner than one would find acceptable. He finally paid for a Bar-Sto barrel out of his pocket and says he has been living happily ever after ever since. His thought on the whole thing was to wonder if maybe Browning's barrels aren't a little soft.

And that's where it stands.
 
This is all very interesting, but you still haven't tried the gun with factory ammo, have you? I would very highly recommend that you do so, as it will potentially save you a lot of grief. Imagine going through the hassle of having the gun shipped to the U.S. just to find out that Browning tested it with factory ammo, determined that accuracy was within spec, and shipped it back to you without doing any work (and probably charged you for shipping). Why not spend $12-13 on a box of Winchester to be 100% sure that the problem is not ammo related?
 
capp325 said:
This is all very interesting, but you still haven't tried the gun with factory ammo, have you? I would very highly recommend that you do so, as it will potentially save you a lot of grief.
You will probably find this very interesting as well. I asked Browning if I had to also fire a box of factory ammunition to confirm the size of the patterns I was getting with commercial reloads and personal handloads. The answer was, no, 8" groups at that distance were so outside of the accuracy standards for the pistol - not to mention the concerns about the oversize bore which have nothing to do with ammunition. Instructions were that I should just send it in, and send it directly to Browning.
 
Rick said:
You will probably find this very interesting as well. I asked Browning if I had to also fire a box of factory ammunition to confirm the size of the patterns I was getting with commercial reloads and personal handloads. The answer was, no, 8" groups at that distance were so outside of the accuracy standards for the pistol - not to mention the concerns about the oversize bore which have nothing to do with ammunition. Instructions were that I should just send it in, and send it directly to Browning.
Well, it's up to you, I'm just trying to help. When troubleshooting any problem, the first step is always to eliminate the most likely cause of malfunction. Personally, I would should a box of factory ammo regardless of what some customer service rep who may or may not know what he's talking about says. But that's just me. Unless the gun is visibly defective – i.e. awful barrel to slide fit or damaged barrel crown – I can’t imagine how it could shoot 8 inch groups at 20 yards (you're shooting from a rest, right?)
 
capp325 said:
Well, it's up to you, I'm just trying to help. When troubleshooting any problem, the first step is always to eliminate the most likely cause of malfunction. Personally, I would should a box of factory ammo regardless of what some customer service rep who may or may not know what he's talking about says. But that's just me. Unless the gun is visibly defective – i.e. awful barrel to slide fit or damaged barrel crown – I can’t imagine how it could shoot 8 inch groups at 20 yards (you're shooting from a rest, right?)
The most likely cause of a malfunction that amounts to 20" groups at 50 yards instead of what should be 4" or less groups is neither the ammunition or the shooter - it's the gun. There's a big difference between "something's not quite right" and "this is ridiculous".

No, I didn't shoot from a rest, I shot point shoulder - just like I do in PPC. But seeing as I can - and did - pick up my Distinguished revolver and put six rounds into a tight little group from the same distance into the same target before and after shooting the BHP, we're not talking shooter error here. At least not on a magnitude of 7", switching from shooting double action revolver to a single action pistol.

I didn't talk to the customer service reps at Browning, BTW, I talked to a techie/shop dude. You just need to be persistent enough and you'll get there; same guys that their service center gunsmiths talk warranty issues over with.

This isn't an ammunition issue by any stretch of the imagination and never has been. Remember, there's actually three evident problems here: bullets are keyholing in the target (and they are quality bullets), the group size is closer to being described as a shotgun pattern, and the barrel bore is four thou bigger than it should be. This is many orders of magnitude beyond being a "fussy about ammunition" problem. Extend that 20 (it was actually closer to 17 or 18) yard group size to 50 yards, and you're talking about 20" groups instead of the 4" maximum size expected for these handguns. There is an enormous problem here, somewhere. The barrel may have an undersize O.D. for the slide, to go with the over size bore; the crown looks fine.

The fact that the bore is four thou oversize is reason enough alone to return the pistol. The fact that both quality jacketed and quality commercial cast bullets are keyholing in the target at 20 yards is reason enough alone to return the pistol. And the pathetic accuracy is certainly reason enough to return the pistol. Taken together, that's a pretty strong case for returning it for rebarreling or whatever so that ALL of those issues are dealt with.

Either way, I'll let Browning sort it out from here. I would prefer not to, but no amount of reloading tricks, bore lapping, etc is going to sort out these kinds of problems.
 
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