Hi-Power .40 S&W: disappointing first day

[Canuck44]

NAA - keep on guessing....

Accurate is accurate. After what Dlask did to my NOrk! Point being that any particular price point a shooter is a shooter. I'll guarantee you my bone stock Norinco A1 will out perform in accuracy and function any stock Mil-Spec colt pretend throw back you want to come up with and costs peanuts compared to the WW1 & WW11 look alikes Colt has made recently and the NOrinco will digest every variety of .45acp made.

For the life of me I can't see why someone would pay dollars more for the prancing Colt thinking somehow they are getting a better 1911.

Stay Safe

Bob

 

[NAA]

The prancing horse 1911's are the standard by which all others that have followed are judged... That's how it is & how it's always going to be. Not trying to grandstand here but that's just how it is...

Any pistol smith worth his salt can make a Norinco perform with the best of them. And people will still judge it next to an original Colt.

 

[capp325]

The Norinco koolaid is being served again, I see. Anyone wanna guess how long it will take for someone to jump in with claims that Norincos are made with the highest quality steel money can buy? This thread is about Browning, so let's keep Norinco circle jerking out of it. There's about a billion threads on that subject already.

 

[RePete]

OK people.

This thread is about a BHP in 40S&W, NOT Norcs and Prancing Donkeys.

Let's get back on subject.

 

[Rick]

If you want the best accuracy you should. Size lead bullets to .355 and you will get key holing and leading in your 9MM guns. Been there done that.

Did you ever consider that you are sizing to deal with a ball seat diameter issue and not a bore diameter issue?

If the bullet is too small for the ball seat, you are going to get gas cutting and leading as soon as the bullet clears the case and that hot gas starts flowing around the bullet and doing its' thing. Whether it's the ball seat in a pistol or too-small chamber mouths in a revolver. Fit to the ball seat, pay attention to BHN if necessary, and don't worry about the bore - when the bright light appears at the base of the bullet, given a good seal right out of the case it WILL take on the diameter of the bore.

I don't believe there's a single Cast Bullet Association competitor who is sizing relative to bore dimensions anymore - sizing decisions are primarily related to the ball seat shape and dimensions. When you're getting .417" groups at a hundred yards with handguns and .190" with plain base bullets - not gas checked - out of rifles, you must be on to something.

Obviously however, if whatever you're doing works, then I'd be surprised if you changed it.

Shipping for me is prohibitive so I cast my own. Too, I prefer soft lubes in the 9MM and most commercial bullets are lubed with hard lube.

I can understand that. I'm close enough that it makes sense to do the drive as often as necessary and purchase bullets 10k-20k at a time. PPC and similar games can eat up bullets pretty fast. Kurt is selling 9mm/.38 bullets at $46/1000 for example. I stepped into a deal and got these .40 bullets at $40/1000. My handguns are happy with either Diamond Coat or hard commercial lube.

Good reference site for Cast Bullet is:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/

Felix and Deputy Al probably know more about cast bullets and their effective use than the sum of guys I know.

I wondered where Felix had disappeared to. I prefer this and it's related message board myself:
http://www.castbulletassoc.org/

Thanks for the info Bob...

 

[Rick]

Well sorry I owned a Commerical FN Hi Power which was made in Belgum, which wasn't a cheap clone, and the second HP was a clone a Hungary FEG POS Clone one.
...
So I know my guns.....

Except... for how to end up with an accurate Hi Power, right?

Let me ask you again... what was the quality control accuracy standard guaranteed by the manufacturer for that FN Hi Power? And for the FEG? 4" at 50 yards - same as Browning guarantees? I suspect not.

I guess the difference is your choices in handguns leave you with handguns that are reliable and have dismal accuracy - such that you say you've never seen an accurate Hi Power. My choices have left me with three reliable Hi Powers that had excellent accuracy, and a fourth that is reliable and the manufacturer will correct under warranty until it too has excellent accuracy.

You saved money on your choices; I spent a little more for a guarantee of accuracy on top of reliability.

Rick also I diddn't buy the FN high power becuase it was a accurate gun, I bought it becuase its a reliable gun, If I want a accurate gun, I'll shoot my SIG or my PPC gun.

Call me crazy, but I'd prefer to have accurate as well as reliable; particularly when it can be had in a stock gun. But then, that's just me - you may well prefer something entirely different.

 

[RobertMcC]

I talked to many people and even they call Brownings, FN, FEG, Hi powers who ever made it, not that accurate of a gun. Its Pre WW2 Tech.

My Sig is a very accurate and realiable gun and its bone stock more ever then a HP will be.

Rick Im done with this topic. All this is, is a pissing match. I wasn't happy with Hi Power ( IN GENERAL ) accuracy and more I realize they wern't realiable either, so why I went to other more accurate and realiable guns.

Go have fun with your Hi powers, Becuase I dont care, They never meet what I wanted in a gun. Why I nevered kept mine.

Robert OUT....

 

[Rick]

I think you are missing the point. Browning does not make firearms of any kind hasn't since for well over 100 years. The FN Hi-Power and the Browning are the same gun with different markings on the slide. Pure marketing. Both guns come out of the same factory, made by the same people. Ok, recently all assembly has been moved to Portugal with the parts being made in Belgium.

Ya, ya, I know, I know...

Once again, what is the accuracy guarantee on that FN that Robert said suffered with mediocre accuracy? I've never owned one - but if there is minimal accuracy guarantee on an FN... why would you not get one with mediocre accuracy fixed by the factory until it met that minimum standard, instead of just suffering with it and complaining about the lack of accuracy in the design? I mean, if you bought one of Weatherby's Sub-MOA rifles and it wouldn't do better than a couple of inches - would you just say you've never seen an accurate Weatherby? Or return it to have the accuracy problems sorted out and it shot to the factory standard?

 

[NAA]

OK people.

This thread is about a BHP in 40S&W, NOT Norcs and Prancing Donkeys.

Let's get back on subject.

Did I mention that, next to my Colt 1911's, I really happen to like my BHP MkIII's in .40 S&W & 9mm...

 

[RobertMcC]

Ya, ya, I know, I know...

Once again, what is the accuracy guarantee on that FN that Robert said suffered with mediocre accuracy? I've never owned one - but if there is minimal accuracy guarantee on an FN... why would you not get one with mediocre accuracy fixed by the factory until it met that minimum standard, instead of just suffering with it and complaining about the lack of accuracy in the design? I mean, if you bought one of Weatherby's Sub-MOA rifles and it wouldn't do better than a couple of inches - would you just say you've never seen an accurate Weatherby? Or return it to have the accuracy problems sorted out and it shot to the factory standard?

Last thing I'll say that my FN Hi Power was also made in the late 60's early 70's

I remember seeing MADE IN BELGIUM BY FABRIQUE NATIONAL HERSTAL and Montreal P.Q on the slide.

 

[capp325]

Last thing I'll say that my FN Hi Power was also made in the late 60's early 70's

I remember seeing MADE IN BELGIUM BY FABRIQUE NATIONAL HERSTAL and Montreal P.Q on the slide.

How was the trigger on your Hi Power? I heard that it can be pretty stiff thanks to the magazine safety (though I'm not sure if they had magazine safety back in the 70's). Perhaps that was one of the causes of substandard accuracy for you.

Aside from accuracy, how would you compare the FN to the Sig? My next pistol will most likely be either a P226 or a BHP.

 

[Rick]

I talked to many people and even they call Brownings, FN, FEG, Hi powers who ever made it, not that accurate of a gun. Its Pre WW2 Tech.

Can I start by pointing out that the "it's pre-WW2 Tech" sneer sounds pretty funny coming from a guy who had just written "but far from a tac driver like my 45ACP 1911".

Would I be correct in assuming your position is that Pre-WWI technology means accuracy, but Pre WWII technology does not? Moreover, you've made mention of PPC a number of times. The design most PPC revolvers are based on came out somewhere around 1899, I believe. That would make it "Pre Boer War Tech"... oddly enough, doesn't seem to be a problem. Anyways, you'll understand why I find your comment about the period in which the BHP both amusing and irrelevant.

I'm confused about the "many people" you have spoken to who have assured you that Browning HP's are not that accurate. Are these all Grand Masters who find 4" at 50 yards simply not good enough? Or people who had BHP's which wouldn't meet the factory standard and weren't smart enough to ask Browning to fix the problem with the handgun they just bought?

Seems to me it has to be one or the other.

And as for your FN and FEG, you still won't tell us whether the factory warrantied them for the same accuracy as Browning and you couldn't bother to get them repaired, or they didn't have any such warranty so you spent a little less money and ended up with mediocre accuracy that the factory warranty wouldn't deal with. Again, must be one or the other.

My Sig is a very accurate and realiable gun and its bone stock more ever then a HP will be.

I'm happy for you.

All this is, is a pissing match.

Not really. I'm just a guy who has owned at least one BHP for the last 32 years, all of which except the new .40 have been both very accurate and very reliable. A kid born 11 years after I acquired my first one and who tells me he "knows his guns" (having legally owned firearms for... what... three years), informs me he owned two high powers and in his three years of being a gun owner has never seen an accurate high power.

Being as Browning DOES warranty a base level of accuracy in their high powers, and as the aformentioned kid didn't own a Browning, I simply asked what level of accuracy FEG and FN guaranteed when he chose the two specimens that lead him to declare BHP's mediocre.

I don't know whether you're embarrassed because you didn't bother getting FEG and FN to do warranty work if their standards were the same as Brownings, or whether you're embarrased that you saved a few bucks on the handguns and return got a product without an accuracy guarantee. But in the end, it was a simple question.

Ultimately, 4" at 50 yards - what Browning has as their factory standard for the BHP - is pretty damned good. You mentioned shooting PPC, so you realize of course that if you personally are capable of holding 4" at 50 yards, you're cleaning Match 3 in a 1500 match most or all of the time. Unless you're already a Grand Master, I don't think you can hold the 4" at 50 yards that Browning warranty's their High Power for.

Becuase I dont care

If you don't care, why are you going to so much effort to tell me what mediocre firearms I've owned and used for longer than you've been on this planet?

Thanks for your input.

 

[RobertMcC]

Can I start by pointing out that the "it's pre-WW2 Tech" sneer sounds pretty funny coming from a guy who had just written "but far from a tac driver like my 45ACP 1911".

Would I be correct in assuming your position is that Pre-WWI technology means accuracy, but Pre WWII technology does not? Moreover, you've made mention of PPC a number of times. The design most PPC revolvers are based on came out somewhere around 1899, I believe. That would make it "Pre Boer War Tech"... oddly enough, doesn't seem to be a problem. Anyways, you'll understand why I find your comment about the period in which the BHP both amusing and irrelevant.

I'm confused about the "many people" you have spoken to who have assured you that Browning HP's are not that accurate. Are these all Grand Masters who find 4" at 50 yards simply not good enough? Or people who had BHP's which wouldn't meet the factory standard and weren't smart enough to ask Browning to fix the problem with the handgun they just bought?

Seems to me it has to be one or the other.

And as for your FN and FEG, you still won't tell us whether the factory warrantied them for the same accuracy as Browning and you couldn't bother to get them repaired, or they didn't have any such warranty so you spent a little less money and ended up with mediocre accuracy that the factory warranty wouldn't deal with. Again, must be one or the other.


I'm happy for you.


Not really. I'm just a guy who has owned at least one BHP for the last 32 years, all of which except the new .40 have been both very accurate and very reliable. A kid born 11 years after I acquired my first one and who tells me he "knows his guns" (having legally owned firearms for... what... three years), informs me he owned two high powers and in his three years of being a gun owner has never seen an accurate high power.

Being as Browning DOES warranty a base level of accuracy in their high powers, and as the aformentioned kid didn't own a Browning, I simply asked what level of accuracy FEG and FN guaranteed when he chose the two specimens that lead him to declare BHP's mediocre.

I don't know whether you're embarrassed because you didn't bother getting FEG and FN to do warranty work if their standards were the same as Brownings, or whether you're embarrased that you saved a few bucks on the handguns and return got a product without an accuracy guarantee. But in the end, it was a simple question.

Ultimately, 4" at 50 yards - what Browning has as their factory standard for the BHP - is pretty damned good. You mentioned shooting PPC, so you realize of course that if you personally are capable of holding 4" at 50 yards, you're cleaning Match 3 in a 1500 match most or all of the time. Unless you're already a Grand Master, I don't think you can hold the 4" at 50 yards that Browning warranty's their High Power for.


If you don't care, why are you going to so much effort to tell me what mediocre firearms I've owned and used for longer than you've been on this planet?

Thanks for your input.

1. My 1911 wasn't factory other then the SA frame that was built in the 70's, which I used STI parts, Other parts were high end race gun part, I had it built for IPSC shooting. I was able to double tap and put 2 rounds in the same hole.

2. Why would worry about calling FN about a 32 year old at the time FN Hi Power which I bought, and after 32 years expect it to shoot accurate to a 2003 built Browning Hi Power which probley got better in quality? No its a waste of time. Also I wasn't even gonna bother with my FEG becuase overall fit and finish sucked ( Yes it was new and what would you expect from a poorly built copy ), I could rattle the gun to #### it. Loose money When I sold my FN I actually made 25-50$ on the sale, so I wasn't complaining, just happy to have sold it.

3. I been owning guns legally for 5 years, and having them under my fathers name for 6. Also Ive seen 3 Hi powers used in IPSC matches were they work well, but not that accurate, as the other guns out there.

4. I have to depend on the CF issued ( which Iam Issued ) Inglis Hi Power ( Now makes washer and dryers, which arn't that good either )to save my life which I really dont trust, Due to the piss poor accuracy of them and the poor reliability of the 60 year old firearms.

5. I own a PPC gun, I dont shoot PPC, I got no time anymore, I work full time out of Provience and no longer time any time to shoot other then work.

Also I do know my firearms, I been working with Full Autos since I was 16, I work with alot of forgien wpns, I also visit people houses played and looked at their guns and study firearms. I worked on Hi powers before, I had to rebuilt that FEG becuase the trigger mech was messed up. I figured out how to strip my 1911 which I've rebuilt a few times, and also 15 I could strip a BHP when I went into a wpn tech shop having never been qualified to do it becuase I wasn't in the military, Becuase I read how to. I could be a wpn tech, But I dont have the courses. I get asked at work if I could look at their guns becuase the wpn tech isn't around.

Ive had MANY firearms pass though my arms, I must have had over 50 that I bought and sold. Ranging from Cooeys, Lakefields, Enfields, Winchesters, H&K, Ruger, Beretta, Nornico, Springfield, etc.

capp325 yes they did have the mag safety becuase I had to insert a mag to drop the hammer, and no it never played a part in the Single Action trigger of the BHP found the trigger to be lighter then my 1911 I had before i got the trigger re done.

 

[Rick]

1. My 1911 wasn't factory other then the SA frame that was built in the 70's, which I used STI parts,

Whatever - it was still a design from prior to WW1, and whatever parts you put in it are, by and large, the same general shape and function of the original 1911's from prior to WW1? Whereas the BHP is apparently an inferior design when it was designed 25 or so years later, prior to WW2?

I was able to double tap and put 2 rounds in the same hole.

That's pretty impressive - I know more than a few benchrest shooters, and they can't put 2 rounds in the same hole most of the time - pretty close, but not in the same hole. Pretty good shooting with a handgun.

Why would worry about calling FN about a 32 year old at the time FN Hi Power which I bought... Also I wasn't even gonna bother with my FEG becuase overall fit and finish sucked ( Yes it was new and what would you expect from a poorly built copy

Okay then... so it would be accurate to say your declaration of BHP's being inaccurate is based on one 32 year old firearm you purchased whose past history and whatever use/abuse it incurred you have no knowledge of, and a clone you purchased even though the overall fit and finish sucked and you found it to be a poorly built copy?

4. I have to depend on the CF issued ( which Iam Issued ) Inglis Hi Power ( Now makes washer and dryers, which arn't that good either )to save my life which I really dont trust,

To save your life?

Oh yes... you were thinking of volunteering to go with the reg force on a tour in Afghanistan but posted you were a little reluctant at the time. Have you changed your mind and been picked up for a tour? Or did you do a transfer over to the MP's?

I don't think there's much likelihood of anyone needing to depend on ANY weapon in the CF arsenal to save their life as long as they stick to garritrooping in the reserves here in Canada.

I was being issued Inglis HP's when I was in the CF from about the time you would have been about 1 year old. And I carried one over in Yugo back in 1993 as a weapons det commander. I didn't have a problem with trusting it at all. Of course, like any weapon of any kind, if a pistol was unreliable, it went to the gun plumbers. Like everything else, they either fixed it or condemned it. Seemed to work for us. I never had a wpns tech refuse to work on a weapon that a soldier brought to them.

Also I do know my firearms, I been working with Full Autos since I was 16, I work with alot of forgien wpns, I also visit people houses played and looked at their guns

I see.

I could be a wpn tech, But I dont have the courses.

I see.

I get asked at work if I could look at their guns becuase the wpn tech isn't around.

I see. Things have obviously changed in the military; back in the day, the platoon warrant or a section commander would have had a collection of guts for garters if anything beyond detailed stripping and cleaning had been done by other than gun plumbers. I guess I'm dating myself.

yes they did have the mag safety becuase I had to insert a mag to drop the hammer

Note to would be gun plumbers - you don't need to insert a magazine to drop the hammer on a BHP. Just insert the finger of your choice in the mag well, push on the mag safety, and drop the hammer. Takes longer to explain it than to do it - and no magazine required.

 

[RobertMcC]

Not even gonna bother.....

BTW I'll be in Afghanstan in Dec...

 

[Canuck44]

IMHO the only problem the Hi-Power has to overcome in order to shoot with the best of handguns is it's trigger. Sauve had to get around the patent on the 1911 trigger which at the time was owned by Colt. I might add that it is the excellent trigger that contributes to the S&W K series accuracy as well. OVerall the HI-Power design is excellent and certainly is capable of shooting with most handguns. The 1911 has the benefit of arguably the best S/A trigger pull of any handgun on the market when properly tuned. That along with a store full of aftermarket parts that have been designed to add to the accuracy department.

Take Care

Bob

 

[Blackthorne]

If I ever get that concerned with "what ifs", I'll probably end up carrying a backup CCW gun. And an ASP. And a tactical flashlight. And a combat knife. Accompanied by two Brazilian jujitsu experts as bodyguards. I won't criticize people who only feel truly ready with factory ammo, a back up gun, etc... but it just isn't a concern to me.

ROTFLMAO!

I never heard of a BHP being accurate...

Wife has a BHP Practical that is a nail driver (9mm tho). It's a better shot than we are for sure. 3" at 30 yards benched.

 

[Rick]

IMHO the only problem the Hi-Power has to overcome in order to shoot with the best of handguns is it's trigger.

I don't feel qualified enough on that subject to say. There's no doubt the 1911's being produced today have much crisper triggers, shorter reset differences, etc. My gut feeling is that even if you could put the best 1911 trigger in a Browning HP, it still wouldn't group as well. I think it might come down to the barrel-bushing fit, ultimately. I do know some of the custom smiths go to a 1911-type bushing system on the Browning when somebody looks for one with the very best accuracy.

It would be interesting for curiosity's sake to see if a good smith could produce bullseye accuracy out of a BHP that would equal today's 1911 bullseye guns. It's a curiosity mostly - 4" @ 50 yards as minimum acceptable accuracy is sufficient for my purposes. Sure, 1" @ 50 yards would be great to have, but it would make precious little difference one way or another for my intended purposes.

OVerall the HI-Power design is excellent and certainly is capable of shooting with most handguns.

Certainly no disagreement with that.

The 1911 has the benefit of arguably the best S/A trigger pull of any handgun on the market when properly tuned. That along with a store full of aftermarket parts that have been designed to add to the accuracy department.

Also no disagreement with that.

 

[Rick]

Wife has a BHP Practical that is a nail driver (9mm tho). It's a better shot than we are for sure. 3" at 30 yards benched.

Which would translate to 5" at 50 yards. Factoring in operator aiming errors as it wasn't shot from something like a Ransom Rest, you're right about at the warranteed 4" at 50 yards grouping - or better.

Yet another example for the knowledge among us who know their guns yet who have managed to never see or hear of an accurate BHP.

Things that make you go "Hmmmmm..."

 

[Canuck44]

Rick

You can see a target at 50 yards!

I agree. Handguns for the most part are not weapons designed to shoot beyond 25 yards by the average shooter. Oh I know there are PPC type games that go out to 50 yards and special purpose guns that go further but for me and from what you say, you, COM at 25 yards is probably all we need or can handle. Two handed the best I can do at 25 yards is about 3" on a good day. AT 15 yards different story groups tighten up considerably.

Take Care

Bob

ps FN or Browning can guarantee what they want I couldn't consistently shoot 4" at 50 yards two handed on a bet. Not even sure I could do it from a rest!