High end rifles purchased by newbie shooters.....good idea or bad?

Interesting discussion and one I have watched for the number of years I have been in F-Class shooting. Right now I would tend to buy the best that I know that will work. In F-Class I have won against and been beaten by the custom action and stock high end type rifles and also the Savages with minor improvements such as aftermarket barrels with decent glass shot by a very skilled shooter. Give Cyanide a Savage action rifle and he is still a very hard competitor to beat even with a high end rifle and glass.

Glass tends to lump into 3 different price ranges. The $1000-1300 Sightrons, the $2000 - 2400 Nightforce and the $3500 March/S&B levels. For F-class only, it is my opinion that the Sightron is good enough for most of the shooting we do in the local and Regional shooting competitions and that there is no point in buying into the Nightforce price level. If you are going to spend more than a Sightron then move to the Match/S&B level. For F-class shooting btw the S&B aren't very popular and I have only seen a couple on the ranges I travel. In fact, a factory S&B distributor at a large match I was at didn't recommend them because they broke.

The big issue I see now isn't the money/quality issue but one of supply for upgrading. Right now Krieger and Brux are quoting approx. one year for a new match barrel and then try to get a gunsmith to install it right away. To build a high end rifle right now may take you about 1-1/2 years to get it finished!!! MacMillan stocks are taking about 6 months.

Therefore, if you are really serious and have the money I would probably buy a high end rifle simply because you would have a competitive rifle in your hands right away. Remember that it is going to cost between $7000 - $10,000 to get competitive in competition shooting and take you 3 - 4 years to build the skill base required to use the equipment once you have the equipment decent enough to acquire the skills. Getting high end equipment won't get you the skills you need because that takes trigger time but it will shorten the mistake correcting time you acquire along the way.

Actually most people I have met that are into the "TactiCool" scene aren't really interested in really learning to shoot or use their equipment. You never see them on the range. To those people it is a fad which will pass so probably buying top end equipment is more of a "look here, I have money statement".

Steve
 
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Nobody has touched on the learning factor of owning and maintaining a rifle. I'm talking cleaning, mounting scopes, etc. It is very easy for the inexperienced to cause damage with improper technique and tools.

There is certainly a learning curve.
 
bolbmw said:
Nobody has touched on the learning factor of owning and maintaining a rifle. I'm talking cleaning, mounting scopes, etc. It is very easy for the inexperienced to cause damage with improper technique and tools.

There is certainly a learning curve.
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Exactly. Noobs make mistakes, it's a fact of life. Something like using the hem of your shirt to wipe off your scope lens might scratch it up, and if that's a $200 Bushnell it's a bit more palatable than a $2000 Sightron. Or using an improper cleaning rod and scratching up your barrel or chamber, with a 700 SPS it's a bit less horrible than with a $700 match barrel.

That said, if someone knows what they are doing and takes proper care, there's no reason not to start with exactly what you want.

I got a Walther PPQ as my first pistol, even though functionally everyone will tell you to get a GSG or Norinco .22 to start with. For the price of my AR I could buy an entire crate of Norc CQ-A rifles. I've long been opposed to the idea of someone having to "pay their dues" and earn the right to play with the expensive toys. Now, if I was the one paying for their guns it would be a much different matter. Norinco for everyone in that case, but if that person knows what they want, and they can afford it, go for it. You only live once.
 
J996 said:
If you have the cash go ahead, buy a nice rifle BUT...

Don't cheap out on glass and leave plenty of cash to buy/make match ammo with.

There is no point in having a high end rifle that you can't afford to shoot because you spent too much of the budget on the rifle itself.

I started shooting Biathlon as a kid in Switzerland, that's how I learned to shoot. As an adult I shot SR for years, came to Canada have been in the CF for 12 years now.
This year I decided to get into precision shooting, so I bought the rifle that gave me the most wood, went straight for the Accuracy International AW.

Fantastic move on my part, love that thing. We got paid out this year so the cash was there so fuk it, you only live once. If you have the means then get what you really want and be happy.
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I echo J996's comment's. Buy the nicest equipment (rifle & scope - don't cheap out on the scope!) that is in your budget. Buy once cry once has really been becoming a motto of mine the past 2 years. If it's worth buying, it's worth buying something of quality (in most cases).

Best case scenario, you save the money you would've spent buying and selling cheaper rifles as you progressively move into better/more expensive rigs. Also, if you buy a cheaper rig, you will always be coveting the nicer, more expensive rig and always have the thought in the back of your mind - "should I have bought that TRG/Coyote?". You won't be content until you get the nicer rig. I know that's how I would feel about it anyways.

Worst case scenario, you lose interest in the sport and sell off your High $$$ rig, and get most of your money back.
 
It has to be good enough that you want to go out and shoot it and not feel that it's holding you back.
 
the learning curve will be much shorter if doubt on the accuracy of the rifle is removed at the outset.
As stated before a Savage with a match barrel in the proper hands will shoot the lights out.
The beginner should not place himself in a doubting position as far as his equipment is concerned.
 
If you have the means go directly to the best stuff, there is no such thing, learning on entry level rig, if you can learn on top shelve rig, you wont be top of the bat but while learning and putting your act togheter, when you will start to do the right things, your rig will never become the weakest link... Your budget come first and you alone know... Good shooting... JP.
 
Stormchaser said:
I think the high end stuff will hold there value pretty well if you make a bad decision. The best idea is to buy high end used, try the best, then you know if you don't like the sport it's not the equipment. You'll usually get your money back on used off the EE?
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Good idea I bought a used CZ American that was semi customed.. shot it well and got hooked
 
I don't think I saw it mentioned here, but its not just the learning curve for the gun/optics. Have you ever reloaded? Have you worked up a load for a target gun? This can play a bit roll with caliber choice also. Not just for the money spent in components but for barrel wear! If your not used to working up a load or plain reloading in general it could take you 2-300 rounds to get it figured out. Say you bought a boomer with roughly a 1000-1500 round max accuracy caliber. You now just cut a lot of life off the barrel learning to reload.

This is NOT directed at you personally and only a general observation I have noticed over the years. I have no idea if you have ever reloaded or not. Theres a member here with the 50bmg that never reloaded before, didn't size his brass and stuck one in the bore. Now had a live round stuck in the chamber and had to drive home with it to beat on the gun to get it out. His story is on here along with many others.

Now all this might not even be a factor if someone wanted to just use factory ammo all the time.
 
I say if they can afford it and want to get into it, all the better .."buy quality once" & they will be happy with it ...there is no mythicical need to start used or lower price if you can afford the best out of the gate! We just tell ourselves that cause most of us don't have the money :) ....I say good!
sylencer said:
So the debate is whether newbies should go out and buy a high end precision rifle (something like I don't know, a TRG or Coyote we'll say) or if they should buy something like a Savage or a Remington for their first rifle. Before we continue I want to make it clear that we are talking about new to precision shooting, not to shooting in general.

I'll start this off.
It's been said time and time again to people: "Don't cheap out on glass. You will end up selling it down the road for a better one." What is the difference between this and a rifle? If the shooter wants to spend four or five thousand dollars on his first precision rifle where is the harm?

Someone might suggest that "It's analogous to get getting your beginner driver's license and and buying a Porsche 911 for your first car." If you get your driver's license or gun license you have proven that your capable of safely driving a car or safely handling a rifle, respectively. What is wrong with owning a Porsche 911 as your first car? I may be argued that you might not be able to control the power and speed it produces (or afford the insurance). This in no way whatsoever can be affiliated with buying a high end rifle for a first rifle. (EVEN AS A FIRST TIME SHOOTER) A high end rifle is no less safe then a low end or average rifle. So this analogy doesn't apply.

Alternately, some might say that the shooter could ruin or damage the rifle or just not appreciate the value of the rifle's capabilities. To them I say, "Who cares? It's their rifle."
In the end when they do get the skill behind the rifle I say "kudos" to them for not having to go sell their now used rifle and lose money only to buy a high end and therefore more expensive one.

I personally support anyone who wants to dive in head first into precision shooting. There's nothing wrong with doing your research and selecting the best possible equipment for the job at hand.
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From reading the post, it looks to me like the OP already knows the answers to his questions. I think that if one has the funds for it, go for it whatever the others might think: it's your life and your money.

Now on the specific question: if you want to learn and see what you are doing well and what you are doing wrong, you need to take the equipment factor out of the equation as much as possible, so you must find, at least, something that will shoot better than you can for maybe a couple of years. Do you need a 5000$ rifle and 3000$ scope to acheive this? Surely not. For a beginner, such things could be found for a lot less money. But again, if you can afford a PGW or a TRG go for it...and post pictures!

Don't forget that the most important thing to become a good shooter is to go out and shoot.
 
Brian46 said:
I'm curious as to what you consider "basics" and why a cheaper rifle suits learning better?
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Less expensive doesn't necessarily mean lower quality or not as accurate. It's not uncommon to buy factory varmint/precision rifles that can approach .5 MOA with handloads or excellent quality match grade ammunition like Lapua or Federal GMM.

Your rifle will only be as accurate and consistent as you are. If your shooting technique and basic shooting skills are not up to task, you'll never realize the full potential of the equipment your using because YOU are the limiting factor - not your rifle. You ARE going to be the beginner driver in the shiny new Porche. Until you can say that you've reached the point where you can truly say that you're being held back because of your current set up, throwing money at it isn't the solution. It'll only frustrate and discourage you. Then you'll possibly end up selling it because of the disappointment.

Want proof? Go to the EE now and look at all the high end TRG 42's and other makes there for sale with few rounds down range. Guys who bought into the "tactical long range kool aid" and then decided to bail on it for whatever reason. Ever wonder why that is?

In the end, if buying what you want makes you happy, that's what you should buy. However, be realistic about your expectations and goals from the beginning. If buying a TRG 22 and calling it a day is what you want then go for it! In .308 Win. I'm sure a lot of TRG 22 owners will never shoot it enough to wear the barrel out to begin with and maybe give you a life time's service. If not, barrels are cheap compared to the money you're going to spend on quality ammo so don't sweat it.
 
Eddycat said:
From reading the post, it looks to me like the OP already knows the answers to his questions. I think that if one has the funds for it, go for it whatever the others might think: it's your life and your money.

Now on the specific question: if you want to learn and see what you are doing well and what you are doing wrong, you need to take the equipment factor out of the equation as much as possible, so you must find, at least, something that will shoot better than you can for maybe a couple of years. Do you need a 5000$ rifle and 3000$ scope to acheive this? Surely not. For a beginner, such things could be found for a lot less money. But again, if you can afford a PGW or a TRG go for it...and post pictures!

Don't forget that the most important thing to become a good shooter is to go out and shoot.
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Hey Eddycat, although I started the thread, I am not talking about myself in a situation to buy a high end rifle as a new shooter. I just thought it would be a good discussion as I do know new shooters and they do ask this question to me and I was just wondering what other peoples beliefs were about it.
 
I think as long as you have someone to mentor you then buy whatever you can afford. Otherwise, I think it would be better to get something like a Savage 10 or 12 series or Remington Varmint SPS for $600-$900 and then buy a decent scope, some reloading equipment and a good rest set up or bi-pod.

The shooter is going to have to invest a lot of time into learning how to reload precision ammo, how to tweak, tune and clean a rifle and then learn how to actually shoot the rig. The above rifles can be made fairly accurate as has been seen in many posts. I think the shooter should push the rifle's limits, not the other way around.
 
Brian46 said:
I'm curious as to what you consider "basics" and why a cheaper rifle suits learning better?
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Basics would be anything a new shooter needs to know. (zeroing a scope, breathing, follow through, trigger pull, etc.)

The reason I say a cheaper rifle is better to learn on, is that if you make a mistake that damages the rifle or optic, you didn't just ruin an expensive piece of kit.

I have seen guys not torque down a scope enough because they didn't know... the scope hit the floor and broke...

Also a decent .22 can teach you a lot about getting a good group with a couple hundred rounds, instead of say a .308. saving a couple hundred dollars to invest in a better rifle once they know what they are doing.

Like I said before, if someone who never shot before wants a PWG in .338, by all means buy it, but don't expect accuracy when they are jerking the trigger, hot breathing properly, and not consistently using a proper hold at $4.00 a round.
 
I would venture that most of us leaned on a .22 when we were young?

I paid $1300 for my first precision .308, and and additional $800 for its scope.
That was my highest budget at the time.

The gun still shoots better than I do some days.

I am only good with it, because I learned on a $7 (when my Grandmother bought it) cooey .22 single shot. (model 39 I think)
that .22 at 25 yard would put 10 rounds in one jagged hole with its 3/4" scope.

The shooting principles I learned from that $7 rifle, and $0.02 ammo are what made me able to shoot sub MOA with my .308.

and lets face it, learning to shoot these days for the price of a cooey ($100) and bucket of .22lr ($25)
then buying a $$$$$ rifle knowing what to do, will save you a bunch of cash to invest in better optics, guns, and ammo.
 
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