High Pressure - Don't know why

Lot of "blaming the machine" going on here. First it might be the wrong powder being packaged, now the rifle must be out of tolerance. It reminds me of when I was a kid and I blamed the piano for causing the wrong notes to be played.

With more practice you learn to blame the operator first, the process second and the machine last. I made a booboo with a lyman scale, the pointer doesn't quite line up with the 5 grain marks on the scale, so I got confused, but I was lucky and all I ended up with was a sticky shell.
 
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Were the cases you were using new? How did the primer feel when you seated it? A blown primer can jam everything up, and may not have anything to do with having excessive pressures.
 
The Hornady manual shows a starting load of 61.9 and a max load of 72.8 with the 139 grain GMX bullet and H1000 powder.
The Lyman manual with a 140 grain bullet lists 66.0 grains of H1000 as a staring load and 72.7 as max with Remington cases. This is very safe data because a universal receiver and pressure test barrel were used in conjunction with a pressure transducer. The pressure test barrel has a minimum size chamber and bore and will read the highest possible pressures. When a specific firearm is listed for testing a strain gauge is glued to the barrel and calibrated with a known pressure cartridge. This is just one reason why pressure data varies so much between manuals.

The Hodgdon's website also uses Winchester cases that have more case capacity than many other brands of brass. By just using another brand of cartridge case, chamber throat length, etc your chamber pressures can vary.

Get more manuals and compare and average the data before loading.
 
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First of all: Watch who you are calling "OLD". We may be older than you but it was not us who blew a primer.
Yes the primer was blown.
When I suggested determining the maximum overall length for that bullet in your rifle, you appeared lost.
It still appears you have not determined that.
After looking at a picture of the 139 grain GMX bullet, there are two rings on that bullet.
IIRC, there was one ring completely visible on your loaded round.
Therefore, determine the OAL of that bullet in your rifle.
FL resize a case, then run the resizer through the neck 4 times. This will relax the neck so a bullet can be seated to the lands with less effort.
Start a bullet into the case and seat it to the first ring from the base.
Now seat the bullet in the case to the lands. You may want to do this with a couple other bullets started in the above described manner.
Now measure your overall length and using the shortest seated bullet, use it as your template.
Screw your seating die into the press, turn it back 1/2 turn (so you are not crimping) and lock the die in place.
Turn the seating stem back so you are not going to contact the template bullet. Run the template bullet all the way into the die and then gently turn the stem down until contact is made with the template bullet.
Remove the bullet, turn your seating stem in one turn, and lock it in place. One full turn should be about 0.04". This would then give you a starting point should you wish to sat your bullets closer to the lands.
This method should seat your loaded round well off the lands. Barnes makes a mono - non lead bullet and they recommend .050 off the lands. The GMX is somewhat similar in composition and construction.
If anyone finds any fault in this method . . . please let me know. I think I went through every bit of my process "step-by-step". If you don't understand . . . let me know as well. It works for me.
 
When was the last time the rifle was cleaned? I mean really cleaned with all copper fouling removed.

Mono-metal bullets like your GMX do not swage down as easily as jacketed bullet do and a badly copper-fouled barrel will increase pressures.

Couple that with a very hot magum primer - (your Federal Magnums are "hottest" primers on the market designed to ignite 100+ grains of powder BTW)- and things get interesting in a hurry.

Now take all that and jamb the very hard mono-metal bullet tight into the rifling and things can get very exciting......
 
First of all: Watch who you are calling "OLD". We may be older than you but it was not us who blew a primer.
First of all, thanks for the help. I appreciate the willingness to share your experience with me. However, please note that I didn't call anyone "old". I wrote "old boys", A term left over from my private school days that denotes a level of respect for those that have experience beyond my own. I don't want to be misconstrued as disrespectful. If I've offended you, I sincerely apologize.
You do remember correctly that there was one ring exposed on the bullet. COAL = 3.320 My confusion in this lies in the fact that I thought the die presses the bullet in place at the same point of ogive that the lans of the barrel would touch. So, not so much "lost", merely mistaken. Setting the seating stem based on the factory round seemed like a sound decision based on my understanding of how the bullet is pressed into the case. The overall cartridge size being longer than the factory loads seemed of little consequence, as cartridge head to bullet ogive would have been the same length. It would seem, I have a fair bit to learn. Thank you for the insight and the instructions.
 
When was the last time the rifle was cleaned? I mean really cleaned with all copper fouling removed.

Mono-metal bullets like your GMX do not swage down as easily as jacketed bullet do and a badly copper-fouled barrel will increase pressures.

Couple that with a very hot magum primer - (your Federal Magnums are "hottest" primers on the market designed to ignite 100+ grains of powder BTW)- and things get interesting in a hurry.

Now take all that and jamb the very hard mono-metal bullet tight into the rifling and things can get very exciting......
Rifle was cleaned a week before firing, and I clean it regularly. Thanks for the tip on the primers.
 
please note that I didn't call anyone "old". I wrote "old boys", A term left over from my private school days that denotes a level of respect for those that have experience beyond my own.

That's how I took it.. I usually joke about the 'salty dogs' at the range who tell me I'm coming along nicely with my groups and then shoot clover leafs at 200 yards with their granpa's .22 with iron sights, then laugh about how they forgot their glasses today. Same deal.

The overall cartridge size being longer than the factory loads seemed of little consequence, as cartridge head to bullet ogive would have been the same length

With regards to the cartridge base to ogive length (CBTO), that is a better measure than the COAL. But understand that the pressure will vary up and down as you seat the bullet deeper or closer to the lands. Therefore you can't set your COAL or CBTO by trying to match a factory cartridge because you have no idea of the cartridge case volume; the type or power of the primer; or the type, or amount, or burn rate or temperature stability, etc., etc., of the powder.

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This is why I personally feel that it's best to start with a super safe load on the lower end of a range of loads gathered from several source and then vary one parameters at a time.

But I'm also new.

Incidentally, I don't want to sound like a Savage fanboy but you will hear a lot of bad stuff about every brand on the Internet and at the range. Go to SavageShooters.com and ask about it and you'll get a totally different opinion than you'll get at a Remington-friendly forums.
 
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From the sounds of the damage done to the rifle, this wasn't a sightly over load condition....it was a drastic overload condition. I've been reloading since the early 80's and honestly I have never once had any rifle that would stick a bolt at any max load listed in any manual.
There has to be something missed here....I've had a bolt stick to the point of having to hammer it open but that was when I used the wrong powder by mistake.....always check twice what powder you have on the bench and then check it again....always confirm equal amounts of case fill before seating a bullet...if COAL is listed measure it with calipers....if every thing is correct get a gunsmith to check the rifle.
Once you find what actually went wrong let us know!!!
Maybe get someone with more experience at reloading to watch you load a few rounds to confirm you a doing everything correctly.
 
zog54, you did the best thing and sent the rifle back to the manufacturer for analysis.

You can describe your issues to us here until you're blue in the face and you will get a lot of supposition only.

Don't take that the wrong way. Some of those suppositions were educated and plausible. All were well meant.

In the end, without some really sharp pics, not taken with a cell phone, or better yet, hands/eyeballs on, we can't and shouldn't give you a definitive answer. Anything we tell you without all of the information could cause some real issues that could end up dangerous to you.

In relation to your issue, a friend of mine has a 340 bolt action Savage 30-30 with similar issues. It will only handle handloads at minimum specs, with 150 grain spire points. It will not shoot off the shelf ammo of any sort, safely. He only uses it for shooting pigs and steers in the head and the rifle hangs on a nail, through the trigger guard, in the barn. The magazine is long gone and he has a piece of wood that he carved and fit snugly into the well to drop a bullet on from the top so it will chamber easily. No, the rifle isn't rusty and the bore is shiny and bright, without fouling.

The thing is, a grain over minimum and smoke comes out of the bolt from blown primers and the bolt is very tough to lift and extract the fired case. Sometimes the neck will be cracked, right to the shoulder.

We did a chamber cast, after pulling the barrel. I love that Savage nut. That chamber must have been cut with a worn out reamer. It was slightly smaller than minimum spec but, would chamber CLEAN full length sized or new brass without issues. Oh, I forgot to mention, it has a firing pin that protrudes about .025 further than it should. This isn't likely to cause over pressures but it is likely to cause blown primers in the extreme.

First thing we did was to hone down the firing pin to median length. Reassembled the rifle and at least is stopped the blown primers. It didn't do anything for the other pressure signs.

The chamber cast showed that the chamber was true to the bore, so the very tight, under spec chamber had to be the issue. That would have made a great match chamber, under the right circumstances. With a rear locking rifle, of which I will admit limited experience, this may have been the cause of the high pressure problems. At this point, I should also mention this 340 had almost no leade. I didn't have another to compare it to. Maybe I could have gotten away with just doing a throating job on it? That requires a bit more time for set up and to be honest, this rifle just didn't need to be that good. It just needed to be able to accept factory loads or hand loads of a similar equivalent, although the action is very strong and capable of handling some very stout loads.

I have an old 30-30 reamer on hand and recut the chamber. I didn't cut it deeper, other than the throat. Just cleaned up what was there to median tolerances. It shoots well now, without pressure issues. Kills pigs and slaughter steers like a hot darn. Definitely accurate to 3 meters max. IMHO, the neck was so tight and the throat was so short that along with the over length firing pin piercing the primers the pressures were very much higher than they should have been under normal circumstances.

Is this the issue your rifle has??? I have no idea. It may be something similar or it may be something else altogether. I hope they settle the issue for you before hunting season. Factories or their support facilities can be painfully slow at best.
 
I trim to the trim length in the Hornady manual (which is pretty much the same in all manuals) - 2.490". I never allow it to go over the SAAMI spec case length of 2.500". I check case length after the brass is cleaned and sized and before it is primed.
Your at 2499 if you measured right
 
I talked with the Club VP tonight and he had difficulty pulling the bullet . . . almost as if he had to break a crimp.
Could also be a neck thickness problem although would not normally be a condition in a factory rifle/chamber nor with fairly new brass.
It is a mystery but with my 280 which has never seen a factory round, the length was established to the lands. Good thing too as the chamber is a little tighter than SAAMI Specs.
There may also be a fault in the die so there are a number of measurements that could be made on a FL resized case.

I may be getting older but I refuse to get old . . . Explanation accepted.
 
I trim to the trim length in the Hornady manual (which is pretty much the same in all manuals) - 2.490". I never allow it to go over the SAAMI spec case length of 2.500". I check case length after the brass is cleaned and sized and before it is primed.
Your at 2499 if you measured right

Quite possible as even new brass will sometimes exceed SAAMI Specs. The variation in 1F will run from 2.490 to 2.510. Best plan is to FL new brass and trim to length. With 1F brass trim to length even if on exceeds 2.500.
 
Incidentally, I don't want to sound like a Savage fanboy but you will hear a lot of bad stuff about every brand on the Internet and at the range. Go to SavageShooters.com and ask about it and you'll get a totally different opinion than you'll get at a Remington-friendly forums.
Wow, Thanks @HeavyTread. The chart is excellent for the clarification. I've read a that a hunting round should be .015 off the lands. Thats still a lot of pressure according to the chart. As far as savage goes, I have been a pretty staunch fan of savage. However, this having happened with factory loads as well leaves me uncertain. Shouldering the Sako at the store has me thinking a new rifle is warranted.
 
I talked with the Club VP tonight and he had difficulty pulling the bullet . . . almost as if he had to break a crimp.
Yes, when I pulled the rest of them they seemed to me to be very tight. I Used a hammer type bullet puller that required a fair number of wacks to remove. Having no experience with how easy it is to remove a bullet I didn't really know if this was altogether abnormal. Resizing on the press seemed rather effortless and seating the bullets seemed easy to do as well. I took the reloading course a few weeks ago at our club and everything seemed quite normal within the near non-existent experience I have. Could I have a problem with hardened brass?
 
How close to the lands was the bullet seated? Monometal bullets can cause much higher pressures if seated close to the lands.

Year ago or so the rifle had the exact same problem with Hornady super performance factory loads.

Possibly the rifle has an abnormally short throat, which aggravates the situation.
 
This is a very interesting thread for sure.

I agree with bearhunter in the fact that it can be impossible to track down the exact problem over the Internet.

One note that I'll add is I've witnessed pressure issues in a 30-06 chambered rifle shooting the same hornaday factory rounds. This gun had been used for years by the owner and has never had an issue with factory ammo of hand loads. But the hornaday was causing a very sticky bolt after firing.

I've had exactly one overpressured hand load which was the same as yours, I pulled all of the lot down and never found a single problem. So I know how you feel, I rolled it around in my brain for months and I'm still not sure what I did wrong. I've even showed the case to others in person and all are stumped.

All of that said though hopefully Savage will find an issue with your rifle which will get you an answer to the problem.
 
I doubt it was a rifle problem, or an indication of high pressure would have come up when firing factory ammo.

When it comes to balance beam scales, regardless of make, I use scale check weights and balance the scale to the precise charge I'm using. When I work up to the charge weight with a trickler, I bump the pan to ensure that I get two consecutive readings before I consider it correct. Often when sneaking up on my charge weight with the trickler, I find that the scale reads lower than what I actually have in the pan, and does so predictably. My balance beam scale is an RCBS scale as well, but I think you find that most balance beam scales other than Lee, are made by Ohaus, regardless of what color they are.

Other possibilities are that the lot of H-1000 you have is faster than spec. The bullets you have are larger than .284". The bullets are heavier than 139 grs. The cases you're using have significantly less volume than spec. If you seated the bullets tight into the lands, higher pressure than normal could be the result.

If there was a significant amount of airspace in the cartridge case, a very rare over pressure condition might have resulted whereby the powder column under force of the explosion of the primer was forced into the neck and shoulder area of the case, created an immoveable plug of compressed powder, which would not release as the pressure from the propellant gases inside the cartridge case grew in volume. This was suggested by Ackley as a possible reason for "detonations" which have occurred in rifles chambered for large capacity cartridges when loaded with small charges of slow burning powder. The suggested starting load on the Hodgdon site, which is much higher than the suggested starting load in the Hornady manual by the way, would not seem to qualify for this condition, but clearly something happened.
 
Well - When things go wrong, often it is a combination of events or circumstances:

1) I consider 15 thou off the lands too tight for a hunting bullet, and too difficult for a rookie to maintain from cartridge to cartridge. Ask canoeptr ...
2) You were above the min load by a fair amount, and using a hard mono metal bullet.
3) Did you check to see if the cases were binding at the neck before loading.
 
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