History of an Israeli Mauser
- Thread starter cyclone
- Start date
- Location
- Newmarket,Ontario
Probably more luck in learning of the History from its origin in Germany after that ?
The Marks are all you can go by, mine was a Czech Brno with the part of the crest ground off and a tiny Star of David punched onto it. I believe the conversion was done around 1952 and they were in service with the IDF till the 70's as a reservist arm.
If I recall, there were some that were bought from FN (I think) with the Israeli crest on them. Are these the ones you're talking about?
If its one of the surplus ones bought from the Czechs and rebarreled into 7.62, then the only history is the date stamp on the barrel.
If its one of the surplus ones bought from the Czechs and rebarreled into 7.62, then the only history is the date stamp on the barrel.
Israel bought a large quantity of arms fron Czechoslovakia shortly after independence. There were many Mauser rifles, most were WWII production. Many had been reworked/refurbished after the War. There are also various odds and ends of Mauser rifles which Israel purchased elsewhere. Many were rebarrelled to NATO after Israel adopted the FN FAL. The barrels are dated. Many that were not rebarrelled had grooves filed in their bolt handles, so they could be idenitified by touch as being in 7.92. There were also K98k pattern rifles purchased new from FN; these are the ones with the IDF crest on the receiver ring.
As far as tracing the history of a given rifle, the receiver markings should tell when and where the receiver was made. If it a WW2 rifle, the overwhelming probability is that it was from the 1948 Czech. purchase.
As far as tracing the history of a given rifle, the receiver markings should tell when and where the receiver was made. If it a WW2 rifle, the overwhelming probability is that it was from the 1948 Czech. purchase.
maple_leaf_eh
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Yea, I somehow feel I ought to know how to do this instinctively
, but anyone have any idea how to track the history of these things via serial-numbers?......
The history is somewhere in the five sets of numbers and markings on the typical German-made Mauser. After that, it is safe to say the rifle was issued to some soldier in the German forces (Army, Navy, Air Force, SS, or other). Huge heavy books have been written about Mausers.
Its post 1945 history is quite obvious. Sometime after 1945, and more likely after 1948, it came to Israel. The Israelis fought three serious wars (1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973, plus another two in Lebanon 1982 and 2006. The chances your rifle was used in combat are progressively less with each war, because there were successively more and better rifles available for the fighting soldiers. And, it probably left Israeli before the Lebanon wars. From what I've seen, most Israeli Mausers were true mixmasters of parts that fit together properly, not matched for makes and markings.
There were also counterfeit Kar98k rifles manufactured in Czechoslovakia into the early 1950s, complete with little chickens and WaA stamps and war-time dates. These are impossible to tell from a genuine wartime rifle.
I once saw a whole 'unopened' crate of them being unpacked: s/n 4747 next to 7474 next to 7447 next to 7744 next to 4477 next to 4774, all with little chickens and 1945 and 1944 dates. Whole dozen serialled with exactly 4 stamps. NOBODY can tell me that that was pure luck.
.
I once saw a whole 'unopened' crate of them being unpacked: s/n 4747 next to 7474 next to 7447 next to 7744 next to 4477 next to 4774, all with little chickens and 1945 and 1944 dates. Whole dozen serialled with exactly 4 stamps. NOBODY can tell me that that was pure luck.
.
Don't know if I buy that one. The Czechs kept right on making K98k's when the war ended and had a large number of WaA stamped parts on hand and many German contractor made parts as well. They used up a lot of wartime parts that the German inspectors had rejected. There was no reason to make "counterfeit " rifles in the 50's because they were worth nothing then. DOT 45 and TGF 50 were strictly post war as for DOT 44 and SWP 45 codes, you can tell by the barrel codes if they are WW2 production. Many DOT44 and SWP45 coded actions that were assembled post war were actions rejected by WaA inspectors.
There is a new reference book out, it is supposed to be the latest info on late war K98's. It is called, Kriegsmodell and is reputedly a much more accurate guide than Richard Law's book. All these post war mausers were produced at Brno( Mauserwerke Brunn ) and I think the Mauser plant at Bysterica( a sister plant in Czechoslovakia ) ceased production at war's end. This factory was the source of wartime DOU code rifles and I think any Israeli guns with Dou codes were WW2 production just refurbished by the Czechs.
Any post war manufacture Czech mausers will have Czech rampant lion stamps and Brno marked on the siderail usually as well as Upper case serial number suffixes.
I'm not saying someone wouldn't fake WW2 rifles in the last 20 years or so but not in the 1950's. Fakery has to have a pay off or it's not worth the time and expense and in 1950 WW2 German marked mausers were dirt cheap.
There is a new reference book out, it is supposed to be the latest info on late war K98's. It is called, Kriegsmodell and is reputedly a much more accurate guide than Richard Law's book. All these post war mausers were produced at Brno( Mauserwerke Brunn ) and I think the Mauser plant at Bysterica( a sister plant in Czechoslovakia ) ceased production at war's end. This factory was the source of wartime DOU code rifles and I think any Israeli guns with Dou codes were WW2 production just refurbished by the Czechs.
Any post war manufacture Czech mausers will have Czech rampant lion stamps and Brno marked on the siderail usually as well as Upper case serial number suffixes.
I'm not saying someone wouldn't fake WW2 rifles in the last 20 years or so but not in the 1950's. Fakery has to have a pay off or it's not worth the time and expense and in 1950 WW2 German marked mausers were dirt cheap.
Last edited:
You don't have to 'buy' that one, friend. I was there and I know what I saw.
You are thinking like a gun collector.
Try thinking like a politician.
Remember, these are politically-deniable rifles we are talking about.
Russia occupied Czechoslovakia at the end of War Two. Britain stil had much of the Middle East, including Palestine. Russia supported the poor downtrodden Jews for the main purpose of creating trouble for the Brits..... up until after the establishment of Israel. THEN it became politically necssary to denounce Israel as a tool of Anglo-American Imperialism.... and Russia is in solidly on the side of the Arabs. So Russia is supplying one side with weapons (for cash, which all good Socialists love) and the other side with rhetoric (which is free and sounds pretty and is all that Socialists know how to actually produce). At the same time they can keep the peons in Occupied Czchoslovakia working away at one of the few operating industries they still have.... while exporting products with which they might start a revolt against the Socialists. Russia gets stronger and craps on the West, everybody else gets weaker.... and the whole thing can be blamedon the Nazis.
You are thinking like a gun collector.
Try thinking like a politician.
Remember, these are politically-deniable rifles we are talking about.
Russia occupied Czechoslovakia at the end of War Two. Britain stil had much of the Middle East, including Palestine. Russia supported the poor downtrodden Jews for the main purpose of creating trouble for the Brits..... up until after the establishment of Israel. THEN it became politically necssary to denounce Israel as a tool of Anglo-American Imperialism.... and Russia is in solidly on the side of the Arabs. So Russia is supplying one side with weapons (for cash, which all good Socialists love) and the other side with rhetoric (which is free and sounds pretty and is all that Socialists know how to actually produce). At the same time they can keep the peons in Occupied Czchoslovakia working away at one of the few operating industries they still have.... while exporting products with which they might start a revolt against the Socialists. Russia gets stronger and craps on the West, everybody else gets weaker.... and the whole thing can be blamedon the Nazis.
Don't want to argue but Soviet backed communists did not take over Czechoslovakia until February 1948 which left almost 3 years of K98k production following the end of hostilities. When WW2 ended there were thousands of mausers standing in the production line at Brno(even at the war's end production was in the tens of thousands per month) as well as huge numbers of mauser parts rejected during the war for minor flaws. The Czechs continued to assemble rifles and sell them to any customer who had the money. Also the Israelis purchased K98's from FN in Belgium as well as Czechoslovakia. Soviets in the 1950's were never concerned about deniability of weapons. Look at the tremendous numbers of Soviet supplied weapons used by North Korea and Red China in the Korean War. The only unmarked Czech mausers sold during the 50's were the rifles sold out of Czech arsenals which were scrubbed and had the Czech arsenals crossed swords stamps.
Last edited:
300Spartans
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Canada of course
I had a 7.62 Israeli Mauser at one time. I remember shooting that baby at my range, down in low prone, and loving every minute of it. I should have never traded it.
Israeli Mauser + IVI 7.62 = tremendous fun.
Israeli Mauser + IVI 7.62 = tremendous fun.
So, my "7.62 DOT", with the mark "1945", means post-war assembly, I guess...
....There are precious few other markings, save for some numbers electro-pencilled further down on the right-hand side of the rifle, and what looks like two Israeli markings and one tiny WaA marking on the left of the 1945 marking?
Ah, the whole Robert Maxwell/Lev Hoch-Clementis-Durcansky-Kauder affair.......
Neat emblem, not "DOT" marking?.......
Might as well throw my Israeli in here for discussion while the topic is up.
The receiver is off a Kar98a and was probably an Erfurt made one as the Reichsadler matches the one on my Gewehr 98 made by Erfurt. It is double dated as well with 1920 still on the receiver. The original serial number was "x'd" out but you can still make it out. Many of the Imperial markings are still present on what lefts of the receiver after the conversion to .22. She has all WW2 stamped parts on her, some still have their WaA on them.
Sometime during the 1950s I am guessing she was converted to a .22 trainer and a Remington barrel ordered and put on. The bolt was also converted to serve as a .22 bolt. Rather interesting conversion, utilizing all the German parts and not wasting a thing. The parts were parkerized at one point and has a nice tint of green on all the metal surfaces. I am told this was due to heavy use of zinc in the parkerization process.
She currently has an Israeli leather sling with a serial number and a hebrew letter stamped into one side of the leather and a hebrew letter stamped into the brass adjustment tab.
The rear sight base has some interesting markings stamped into the side. One is hidden beneath the stock line but the top line is visible:
"400 (division symbol) 25"
I am thinking this will tell the user how to utilize the tangent rear sight for the .22 ?
I can't tell if the stock was made by the Israelis or a re-used German one but it has the late war cupped butt plate with take down hole on both sides. The stock has finger grasping grooves on both sides near the rear sight base. There is also "0.22" branded into the bottom of the stock.
Does anyone have any information on how these were converted, how long they were used for...etc ? I have been unable to locate any real sources of information as I keep running into the 7.62 Nato converted Kar98ks.
One other thing, can you take the bolts apart on these ? The conversion to the bolt has me a bit intimidated so I have left it alone for now.
The receiver is off a Kar98a and was probably an Erfurt made one as the Reichsadler matches the one on my Gewehr 98 made by Erfurt. It is double dated as well with 1920 still on the receiver. The original serial number was "x'd" out but you can still make it out. Many of the Imperial markings are still present on what lefts of the receiver after the conversion to .22. She has all WW2 stamped parts on her, some still have their WaA on them.
Sometime during the 1950s I am guessing she was converted to a .22 trainer and a Remington barrel ordered and put on. The bolt was also converted to serve as a .22 bolt. Rather interesting conversion, utilizing all the German parts and not wasting a thing. The parts were parkerized at one point and has a nice tint of green on all the metal surfaces. I am told this was due to heavy use of zinc in the parkerization process.
She currently has an Israeli leather sling with a serial number and a hebrew letter stamped into one side of the leather and a hebrew letter stamped into the brass adjustment tab.
The rear sight base has some interesting markings stamped into the side. One is hidden beneath the stock line but the top line is visible:
"400 (division symbol) 25"
I am thinking this will tell the user how to utilize the tangent rear sight for the .22 ?
I can't tell if the stock was made by the Israelis or a re-used German one but it has the late war cupped butt plate with take down hole on both sides. The stock has finger grasping grooves on both sides near the rear sight base. There is also "0.22" branded into the bottom of the stock.
Does anyone have any information on how these were converted, how long they were used for...etc ? I have been unable to locate any real sources of information as I keep running into the 7.62 Nato converted Kar98ks.
One other thing, can you take the bolts apart on these ? The conversion to the bolt has me a bit intimidated so I have left it alone for now.
So, my "7.62 DOT", with the mark "1945", means post-war assembly, I guess...
There are precious few other markings, save for some numbers electro-pencilled further down on the right-hand side of the rifle, and what looks like two Israeli markings and one tiny WaA marking on the left of the 1945 marking?
Ah, the whole Robert Maxwell/Lev Hoch-Clementis-Durcansky-Kauder affair.......
Neat emblem, not "DOT" marking?.......
The emblem is the Czech rampant lion and yeah, it is neat. Post war marking.
I've always read that Waffenwerke Brunn(Brno) manufactured DOT44 and SWP45 in WW2 production and stamped actions DOT45 and TGF50 strictly postwar. Although some DOT44 and SWP45 code rifles left the factory after being refurbished post war or assembled from rejected German parts.
Any Mausers marked Brno on the siderail are for sure post war production.
Nabs, the Israeli mausers were converted in Israel as far as I know. Don't know where the .308 bore barrels came from, maybe FN as they bought complete Mauser rifles from them as well. The WW2 German stocks didn't have finger grooves unless they were Czech or Polish pre war production or maybe FN. Clear as mud, Eh?
I have one that has a G24(t) receiver (1941). I have also seen GEW98 receivers on Israelis. They are my favorite 98k's and shoot great.
All 7.62mm barrels were Israeli made (56 -58). Beech stocks with finger grooves are also Israeli made replacements. FN IDF crest Israelis were delivered with 8mm barrels and later swapped to 7.62 when the FAL was adopted as were all their 98k's.
All 7.62mm barrels were Israeli made (56 -58). Beech stocks with finger grooves are also Israeli made replacements. FN IDF crest Israelis were delivered with 8mm barrels and later swapped to 7.62 when the FAL was adopted as were all their 98k's.
Many IDF soldiers back during the Israeli war for Indepedence and later on have remarked at the irony of using weapons that were once used by a regime that was one of the worst enemies of their race since Antiochus IV (The deranged emperor of the Greco-Syrian empire).
If I read right, IDF paratroopers also used MP40s as well...
If I read right, IDF paratroopers also used MP40s as well...
