History re-made??

ben hunchak

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Every year at this time history buffs meet out at the old Adobe Walls trading post site in the Texas panhandle. They look for artifacts, measure distances, and just generally try to reconfirm Billy Dixon's 1578yd. shot that brought the conflict to an end. This year they made a startling discovery, deep sound imaging produced a few solid copper shotgun slugs with plastic tips!
Could it be that Billy actually shot the Medicine Man off his horse with a borrowed 12 gauge and solid copper slugs?
I'll believe anything after learning that early Canadian Frontier sheep hunters used in-line muzzle loaders with Triple 7 powder.
Isn't it strange how history just keeps repeating itself??
 
Every year at this time history buffs meet out at the old Adobe Walls trading post site in the Texas panhandle. They look for artifacts, measure distances, and just generally try to reconfirm Billy Dixon's 1578yd. shot that brought the conflict to an end. This year they made a startling discovery, deep sound imaging produced a few solid copper shotgun slugs with plastic tips!
Could it be that Billy actually shot the Medicine Man off his horse with a borrowed 12 gauge and solid copper slugs?
I'll believe anything after learning that early Canadian Frontier sheep hunters used in-line muzzle loaders with Triple 7 powder.
Isn't it strange how history just keeps repeating itself??

1578 yard shot????
Im sorry what period was this...Alamo/rev war/french indian war or civil war.

Thats one hell of a shot....I am facinated and want to learn more, What gun was claimed to have shot the aforsaid shot, was it a civilian or a soldier??..

Best I have gotten from my long land is minute of oil drum at 100 yards
"Shes a smoothbore"
 
It was in the 1870s, when a bunch of Buffalo hunters were under siege from hostile Indians at a place called Adobe Walls, in the Texas panhandle. Indian medicine man Ashanti(not sure of sp.), which translated means "wolf####, painted the warriors faces in a manner that would ward off the whiteman's bullets. They watched from afar, knowing they had the handfull of men trapped, when Billy Dixon, using a borrowed 50/90 Sharps, fired a shot that knocked Ashanti off his horse. The Indians knew their medicine was defeated and scattered, ending the siege. the shot was later paced off at 1578yds. The shot has been studied at the orig. site, and the only place the Apaches could have been is on a plateau about 1578yds. away.
 
Stories of old are wonderful reminders of days gone by but unfortunately, things have a tendancy to grow over time as well. Men get bigger, horses get faster and yes, shots get longer. Not saying it didn't happen but sometimes these old tales are best not looked at too carefully because once you start to bring physics and other sciences into the equation, it makes them far less plausible. Even the account I've heard of tale is far less romantic than yours Ben but hey, I love stories of old and if you say Billy made the shot and that he was aiming at the Medicine Man, then that's where it should be left.........

While duplications of the shot have been attempted and replicated with some success, the story of Billy Dixon is best not examined too carefully.....just as most stories of folk heroes shouldn't be.
 
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If you are going to run it, the actual surveyed distance was 1538, not 1578 but it has been a while since I last read the account so the distance may have increased proportionally.
 
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Dig around online, Sheephunter.

The Americans did some long range ballistics testing on the US Govt issue 45-70 ammunition, and were documentng hits well out past 2000 yards, with penetration that would pretty much ensure lethality at those ranges.

Not to say that a hit on a specific target would be a liklihood, just that IF it hit, it would cause harm.
More of value to be able to lay massed volleys of harrassing fire into a group of troops or into their encampments or marshalling areas, but still a known capability.

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/longrange/sandyhook03.htm

Cheers
Trev
 
Dig around online, Sheephunter.

The Americans did some long range ballistics testing on the US Govt issue 45-70 ammunition, and were documentng hits well out past 2000 yards, with penetration that would pretty much ensure lethality at those ranges.

Not to say that a hit on a specific target would be a liklihood, just that IF it hit, it would cause harm.
More of value to be able to lay massed volleys of harrassing fire into a group of troops or into their encampments or marshalling areas, but still a known capability.

http://www.researchpress.co.uk/longrange/sandyhook03.htm

Cheers
Trev



No doubt the energy is there to cause some harm and no doubt the occasional "if" happened, no arguing that. I remember when I was a kid reading on the side of .22 shells "Dangerous within one mile". I took that to heart and I guess they could be. As I said, I love these tales of old folk heros but it seems when you dig too deeply you find way too many "ifs" and I'd rather just let history tell it the way it did but not be so naive as to believe that it brings much practical info to a modern day debate. In the numerous accounts that I've read, the rifle was not borrowed but one that Dixon was intimately familiar with. He was just shooting into the middle of a group of 15 riders not selecting a single target. The target may or may not have been killed and nowhere have I seen reference to his name being wolfs**t but all that does make for a better story. If nothing else, things are different now adays.....men are smaller, horses are slower and distances are shorter!
 
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sheephunter
Can you give me the names of a few of the books or articles you have read may give me some reading material.

Hmmm...you are asking a lot of this old brain but last time I was down in Texas I picked up one titled The Life of Billy Dixon I think. I'm sure a Google search would help you out too or even check Amazon, they have a pretty searchable list of topics.
 
I can't see the shot being any more than a fluke. Blackpowder rifles are quite unique and almost every shooter has his own recipe. I doubt the old buffalo hunters used uniform ammunition. Given this hitting an individual at such range is a real fluke.
I have seen a shooter make repeated hits on a buffalo silouette at over 1100 yards but it toook a few ranging shots even though he was using his own gun and ammo carefully crafted for that individual gun.
One account I have read about the Adobe Walls shot says Dixon was using a spot on a hill as his aim point and not the man or horse.
 
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I stole this off a website......it details that fateful day in late June 1874 and pretty much mirrors everything I've read previously.

The "group of riders" refers to 15 mounted Indians.

No reason not to believe that William Dixon did indeed make the shot.


"Dixon was a renowned rifle shot. Not only did he employ his marksmanship skills in making a living, but he also practiced the sport of long-range target shooting. Further, he had the best equipment then available and that, I must add, was equipment that would rival some of our best today. Keep in mind that some of the long-range target records set in the 1870s & 1880s stood for generations, e.g., a 1000 yard group measuring 8.6-inches fired in 1886. Dixon was not handicapped by lack of equipment. In competent hands, given a good estimate of range and calm conditions, Dixon’s 50-2½ Sharps was a formidable long-range combination. Unfortunately, we do not know the details of his load. However, almost certainly he used a paper-patched, pointed bullet weighing well over one-ounce. Also he almost certainly handloaded, using the best powder then available and due care in all aspects of cartridge production.

After adjusting his long-range sight, Dixon took careful aim and no doubt made a few fine adjustments for any slight breeze, bullet rotation, alignment of the planets, that itch behind his neck, and any other effects he might have though significant. He then touched the finely adjusted set trigger to loose a projectile. His stated target was “The group of riders.”

If his bullet was the lighter Sharps type (approximately 500 grains) muzzle velocity would have been about 1350 fps. For the (more likely) heavier type (about 700 grains) muzzle velocity would have been about 1100 fps. At 7/8 of a mile the lighter bullet would have delivered about 535 foot pounds of energy; the heavier bullet about 845 foot pounds of energy. 1538 yard time-of-flight is practically identical – about 5.3 seconds.

Meanwhile, if any among the Indians were watching, they might have seen a cloud of smoke in front of Hanrahan’s store. It is easy to imagine their mirth at the thought of some foolish White-Eyes wasting powder and lead. Then, an eternal 4.1 seconds later, if they were quiet, they would have heard the distant rumble of a Big-Fifty Sharps rifle.

About 1.2 seconds later, the impossible happened! One of the assembled chiefs took a bullet and was toppled from his horse – most undignified! Not surprisingly, the remaining chiefs recognized that little incident as bad medicine; they therefore and forthwith terminated the Battle of Adobe Walls.

Masterson claimed and Dixon believed that he had killed the rider. Indian accounts claim the chief survived after a bullet hit him above the elbow and broke his arm. Regardless, the bullet did the intended job."
 
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sheephunter
Can you give me the names of a few of the books or articles you have read may give me some reading material.

Precision shooting did an article on reproducing the shot a few years back, and it was published in
"precision shooting at 1000 Yards"
The boys that did it used three different rifles, and there was an accurate account of the whole account also.

Dixon took a shot at a GROUP of men, and knocked one of them off his horse.
I would not wan to get hit with a slug from a 45/90 atr that range either!

Cat
 
The ranges I have seen published have been around 1100 yds. Probably the same article that Cat mentioned but I think I read about it in Rifle magazine at least 10 years ago where two or three black powder rifles were shot on a military range with radar capable of tracking the bullets. As I recall the shots were part of a study for an annual convention of forensic autopsy physicians.
I am pretty sure that I have read a biography of Dixon and in it he was quoted as saying that he did not know if he had hit the horse or the Indian only that the rider when down
In the article quoted by Sheephunter, the gun and ammunition is referred to as belonging to Dixon (by implication). I believe the gun was borrowed from another hunter so while the ammunition was probably carefully loaded, it would not have been loaded by Dixon.
Sort of get the feeling that there is a lot of conjecture in the quoted article.
While not dealing with Dixon, some books worth reading on buffalo hunting would be "the Border and the Buffalo" by Frank Cook and "The Buffalo Runners" by Frank Mayer (Meyer?). I also believe there was a longer shot made by another hunter and another location but don't recall the name or location. The article appeared in one of the shooting rags probably 10 years ago.

cheers mooncoon
 
Here's another account that seems to indicate that it was Dixon's rifle....not sure why he'd borrow one........


"On the third morning, with cool, calm and clear weather, a group of about fifteen Indians convened a war council on a bluff east of Adobe Walls Creek. According to Dixon, the huddled riders were not far from seven-eighths mile away. The distance was later surveyed. Mr. Dixon’s stated range held up quite well – survey report 1538 yards .

No doubt, these riders were arguing how to abandon their ill-fated attack with dignity – something of significance to any self-respect-ing warrior. However, at that moment, a pivotal sequence of events began to unfold. The result eliminated any concerns about dignity.

Knowing Dixon was the best Shootist there, one of the other shooters (Masterson claimed credit) pointed toward the riders and said, “Why don’t you take a crack at them with your ‘Big-Fifty’, Billy?” Evidently, Dixon knew the range well. Perhaps he had previously used that ridge for target practice, something that would have been in character. Evidently, he knew the proper sight setting because he summarily adjusted his Sharp’s rear sight and prepared to “give it a try.”
 
Them old boys down in Wyoming have a mile shoot every May or June on Kenny Wassenburgers ranch and they are hitting very consistant at that range.
45-110 is their rifle of choice (for the most of them).

Ken.
 
Had a book out from the public Library, on the weapons of the US Civil war.

One of the chapters was on the Sharpshooters, and the rifles they used.

There was one story relating to some artillery spotters seen in some treetops on the next ridge, and the discussions that ensued. The shooters had a little talk about it, and decided to see what they could do.
The story tells that they proceeded to cut some branches, and carved out some makeshift sight extensions for the rear sights. They would take a few shots, and make corrections, based on whether there was any reaction from the targets. If the spotter saw the targets look up, at the sound of the projectile passing, he'd tell the shooters to aim lower, if they looked down, lower.
The artillery spotters were said to leave their comfy perch forthwith, once the bullets started whistling through the very branches of the trees they were in, much to the happiness of the shooters.

Lot's of the sharpshooters were guys that joined up, and brought with them their own, very well set up target guns, some in the thirty pound weight range.

Cheers
Trev
 
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