Hollow Point Hunting???

Again, too many variables to even to begin to make predictions on how a bullet will perform on game.

Bullet A may be shot at two identical animals at exact conditions with exact gear and you may get two totally different results, you may get the same results.

Lung shot vs heart shot , which dispatches quicker? This cannot be exactly documented either , have had bang flops and runners with both types of hits.

What kills animals? I believe Dogleg had it pegged a while ago, something along the lines of how much the animals insides are exposed to sunlight I believe. ;)

Predict outcomes of bullets on game? Not really.

Improve your recovery of animals by selecting "appropriate" bullets? Absolutely.
 
Gatehouse said:
I hope to find the bullet or a pic of it. I just dug around my recovered bullet collection and it's not there, but it's not a .446" shank. It's got a tiny base/shank about the thickness of 2 twoonies, and the mushroom is smooshed out making it about the diameter of a pinky fingernail.

I can't believe I wouldn't have taken a pic of it because it was so unique, but I can't seem to find it or the pic right now. . . .
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The copper alloy that Barnes uses in their TSX/TTSX family is still a malleable metal, so I have no reason to doubt what you're saying, picture or no picture. Based on your observations, it appears that for optimum performance, they too have a maximum impact velocity envelope, which was apparently exceeded in the case you describe.

I find this particularly interesting because I'd of bet that the maximum impact velocity on a game animal would have been much higher for a TTSX. GS Custom's experiments with light weight .224 mono-metal bullets with muzzle velocities of 5000 fps resulting in very high impact velocities on medium sized antelope, reportedly maintained good bullet performance, and killed as well as 100 gr .243s without causing as much blood shot meat. The reason this is relevant is that the hardness of a bullet is a balance between fragility and malleability, too hard and the bullet pencils through or breaks up, but too soft and it explodes like a varmint bullet. If we consider your experience with that of GS Customs's, it suggests that there is yet some middle ground to be explored by Barnes.
 
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We tracked down a deer a guy shot off the road in Alberta once and then drove off thinking he probably missed it. I have no idea what he used but when we found the deer it had the whole rib cage on one side blown off and still went over a hundred yards and buried itself under a pile of leaves and twigs before dying .Was the last day of the season so out mule deer doe tag was filled.
 
What kills animals? I believe Dogleg had it pegged a while ago, something along the lines of how much the animals insides are exposed to sunlight I believe.
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Its always best to not stay too far from the basics.:d

Bullet selection is made easy by selecting smaller, light, soft and fast bullets for small, light, soft and fast animals. Best results on large, heavy, hard and slow animals have traditionally been delivered by large, heavy, hard and slower bullets. Beyond that there isn't much to know. ;)
 
Dogleg said:
Its always best to not stay too far from the basics.:d

Bullet selection is made easy by selecting smaller, light, soft and fast bullets for small, light, soft and fast animals. Best results on large, heavy, hard and slow animals have traditionally been delivered by large, heavy, hard and slower bullets. Beyond that there isn't much to know. ;)
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I started a long winded reply to this, then realized there was nothing I was saying that didn't prove the point. Excellent supposition.
 
Boomer said:
The copper alloy that Barnes uses in their TSX/TTSX family is still a malleable metal, so I have no reason to doubt what you're saying, picture or no picture. Based on your observations, it appears that for optimum performance, they too have a maximum impact velocity envelope, which was apparently exceeded in the case you describe.

I find this particularly interesting because I'd of bet that the maximum impact velocity on a game animal would have been much higher for a TTSX. GS Custom's experiments with light weight .224 mono-metal bullets with muzzle velocities of 5000 fps resulting in very high impact velocities on medium sized antelope, reportedly maintained good bullet performance, and killed as well as 100 gr .243s without causing as much blood shot meat. The reason this is relevant is that the hardness of a bullet is a balance between fragility and malleability, too hard and the bullet pencils through or breaks up, but too soft and it explodes like a varmint bullet. If we consider your experience with that of GS Customs's, it suggests that there is yet some middle ground to be explored by Barnes.
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Keep in mind I've also had higher impact velocity from the same bullet with very satisfactory results. Never recovered those billets though.

And I can't really find fault with the bullets performance considering the impact speed and the route the bullet took, plus it pretty much immobilized the bear.
 
Gatehouse said:
Keep in mind I've also had higher impact velocity from the same bullet with very satisfactory results. Never recovered those billets though.

And I can't really find fault with the bullets performance considering the impact speed and the route the bullet took, plus it pretty much immobilized the bear.
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There are two ways looking at this, the easy way is the obvious, the game dies a quick and humane death, and the end condition of the bullet is seen as being of no consequence. The other way is the realization, that success was despite the bullet's performance rather than as a result of it. Each point of view has it's champions, and perhaps neither is entirely correct or entirely wrong. Berger has made a success from the former, Swift has made a success from the later.

Edited to add . . .
You might recall A-Square's bullet triad, a bonded soft point, the brittle and explosive lion load, and a mono bronze solid. The lion load was envisioned to be a devastating bullet for a broadside shot, where the bullet got inside then grenaded. The reality of lion hunting though is that head on shots are more frequent than broadside, and several maulings occurred when the bullet broke up on the lion's teeth. There is no substitute IMHO, for good terminal bullet performance, because you never know for sure what range you'll shoot from, or what target angle you'll face.
 
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I once looked into the feasibility of using a 222 Rem on deer. The 1:14 twist ruled out the heavier bullets. I phoned Sierra to get some guidance. They explained that expansion is controlled by the hardness of the lead and by the thickness of the jacket. Two identical looking bullets could have very different expansion characteristics.

Because the varmint bullets are often hollow points, we associate hollow points with rapid expansion/poor penetration. He said that, other elements of the bullet being the same, a hollow point has better penetration than a soft point. I tried the Sierra 60 gr HP and found it deadly accurate and it had very good penetration.
 
Raton57 said:
We tracked down a deer a guy shot off the road in Alberta once and then drove off thinking he probably missed it. I have no idea what he used but when we found the deer it had the whole rib cage on one side blown off and still went over a hundred yards and buried itself under a pile of leaves and twigs before dying .Was the last day of the season so out mule deer doe tag was filled.
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Just quietly reading this thread, having lots to learn from the experience of others.
Maybe off topic but thank you for cleaning up after that irresponsible a****le.
 
skhunter said:
You do know that death is caused by lack of blood supply to the brain. A heart shot interrupts that supply much quicker than a lung shot.
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Over 8000 animals later, Mr. Foster does not agree, and I believe him. Read it for yourself.

ht tp://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Game+Killing+Fundamentals.html

(Just in case you don't want to read it yourself, here's the summary; All blood passes through the heart and lungs. A hole in the heart leaves oxygenated blood in the rest of the body and allows the animal to live for some time. Holes in the lungs allow the heart to pump all the blood out through the lungs into the cavity, resulting in very quick death from blood loss. You can choose to argue with me on this point, but as I said I am pretty comfortable siding with logic, science, and Mr. Foster's research.)
 
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Dogleg said:
Its always best to not stay too far from the basics.:d

Bullet selection is made easy by selecting smaller, light, soft and fast bullets for small, light, soft and fast animals. Best results on large, heavy, hard and slow animals have traditionally been delivered by large, heavy, hard and slower bullets. Beyond that there isn't much to know. ;)
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I like it.
 
Boomer said:
. There is no substitute IMHO, for good terminal bullet performance, because you never know for sure what range you'll shoot from, or what target angle you'll face.
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I'll go on to add that many of us don't necessarily know what animal we will be shooting at either! I've been on lots of moose hunts that turned into deer hunts/bear hunts/yote hunts...And vice versa. And maybe needing to stop a grizzly too....And the combination of all those factors keeps steering me towards the TSX or TTSX for just about every big game animal, in most hunting situations. It's not the only bullet that works well as an all around bullet with any target angle capabilities, but it's one of them. :)
 
Gatehouse said:
I'll go on to add that many of us don't necessarily know what animal we will be shooting at either! I've been on lots of moose hunts that turned into deer hunts/bear hunts/yote hunts...And vice versa. And maybe needing to stop a grizzly too....And the combination of all those factors keeps steering me towards the TSX or TTSX for just about every big game animal, in most hunting situations. It's not the only bullet that works well as an all around bullet with any target angle capabilities, but it's one of them. :)
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There are definitely some bullets that are better "do-alls" than others. I agree the TSX/TTSX are one of them. Ideal for some things and sufficient for others. There may be times when one could look back in hindsight and say "bullet X would have worked better", but as long as the animal is recovered... well, you know the rest.

I've toyed with the idea of having 2 different types of projectiles loaded into my 4-round magazine. As long as I load them to shoot basically the same, I could fairly quickly choose which type of bullet I want simply by working the action. I dunno if I *will* do this, but it's one possibility. Whether one of them is a hollow point or not is basically irrelevant, one way or the other. I think most of us agree on that, at least.
 
I smacked a black bear at 250 yards with a 25-06 using the Hornady 120 grain HP.
A huge spray on the far side and if he went 10 yards most of that was in circles.
This HP is quite closed so it may not open as quickly as others.
Speer HP's were very open and could probably turn a truck around in it.
 
ironsighter said:
Over 8000 animals later, Mr. Foster does not agree, and I believe him. Read it for yourself.

ht tp://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Game+Killing+Fundamentals.html

(Just in case you don't want to read it yourself, here's the summary; All blood passes through the heart and lungs. A hole in the heart leaves oxygenated blood in the rest of the body and allows the animal to live for some time. Holes in the lungs allow the heart to pump all the blood out through the lungs into the cavity, resulting in very quick death from blood loss. You can choose to argue with me on this point, but as I said I am pretty comfortable siding with logic, science, and Mr. Foster's research.)
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Death occurs when oxygenated blood no longer reaches the brain. As long as the heart pumps the brain receives oxygen. Stop the heart and that supply is cut off instantly.
 
bearkilr said:
Maybe so, but when you shoot an animal in the head, I've seen the heart pumping for quite sometime after, and the animal is definitely dead regardless. :)
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Yep, when the brain stops working the animal dies. There are 2 ways to shut the brain down, destroy it with a bullet or cut off the oxygen supply.

The brain receives oxygen from blood pumped to it by the heart, when the heart is destroyed the blood flow stops and the brain dies.

The brain of an animal shot through the lungs continues to receive blood until the heart pumps all of the blood into the chest cavity, then the brain shuts down due to lack of oxygen and the animal dies.
 
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