Below is the string of comments i was reading, some valid points on both sides.
Mark Young
At one time I was impressed with hollow point ammo. The hollow point seems very impressive in balistic gel. Until I started studying gun shot wounds in the real world from autopsy reports and trauma surgeons. From their reports handguns lack the power for the temporary cavity to do any damage to human tissue, as with rifles. Handguns kill by hitting vitals or arteries causing blood loss. The reports showed hollow points causing wounds that were a bit wider with their permanent cavity, but was not effective because it lost to much energy to penetrate to cause damage to vitals or cause enough blood loss. And hollow points performed even worse if the bullit had to penetrate bone like the sternum or ribs. From their reports handguns are not great at killing people. 6 out of 7 people will live after being shot with a handgun with prompt medical treatment. The conclusion from their reports are to use the biggest bullit that penetrates the deepest, or aim and score a head shot. In the real world this is showing the best results with handguns in terms of handgun balistics used against people. It comes down to bullit diameter and penetration, not an impressive temporary cavity.
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sgtbland 4 months ago
You don't want over penetration. That is wasted energy that can pass through and hit something or someone else. HPs open up to a larger diameter which causes more blood loss and tissue damage/dissruption. Shot placement matters more but HPs are still a lot more effective at stopping a threat. If you want to use fmjs do it in a rifle where you have real power and don't need the extra help like you do with underpowered handguns.
Mark Young 4 months ago
+sgtbland Yes you do want over penetration. Handguns do not kill with kinetic energy. The temporary cavity has near 0 wounding effect to human tissue. In a handgun. The number one consideration when choosing a defensive round is 1. Penetration 2. Bullit diameter. And from studies pass through is highly over blown as a danger. Since 75% of the time in a defensive shoot at least one or more shots miss their target. Hollow points look impressive in gel, but in the real world from actual shootings in a human body. The human effects show FMJ rounds to be the most effective.
sgtbland 4 months ago
+Mark Young It causes an actual wound channel that causes much more blood loss than a fmj. I know this from personal experience that a fmj does little more than pass straight through. Shot placement is key but the chances of you getting a well placed shot to the fatal funnel during a stressful dynamic situation like a shooting is very unlikely. So making a round like a 9 mm that has more velocity and expands to around .81 of an inch and produces 400-500 ft lbs of muzzle energy is very effective all while being extremely light on recoil is very effective in stopping an attacker. I've been shoot with fmj 115 gr crap ammo that does nothing more than pass straight through and causes minimal blood loss. Even though I was hit in the diaphragm and the liver I was able to keep fighting.
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Mark Young 4 months ago
Real world data shows you to be wrong from humans being shot with both types of rounds. I once thought as you did. So I understand. Do you want to know how much force is being applied to your 9mm round, with the impressive sounding 400-500 ft lbs of energy. It is equal to the felt recoil of your gun. That you say is extremely light on recoil. For ever action there is a equal and opposite reaction. Hmmmmm
sgtbland 4 months ago
+Mark Young I guess you are right and every expert out there is wrong.
Mark Young 4 months ago
+sgtbland This is not my data, but data from experts and doctors that do not have a interest in selling people ammo. Their interest is knowing how hand guns kill, so they can save lives of gun shot victims. Not selling the public expensive, so called defensive hollow point ammo. There is reason why many want to reinforce the hollow point myth with the public. money!
gtbland 4 months ago
+Mark Young Yeah I guess LEOs, certain military details and security forces use them because they like wasting money.
Mark Young 4 months ago
And some don't. I guess it comes down to what you personally believe. I believe the real world data from doctors and other medical personal that have to treat hand gun wounds. I have 9mm and 40 S&W I now carry a 45 and use FMJ as my personal defense ammo because of the data I have seen from real world shootings, not balistic gel test.
sgtbland 4 months ago
+Mark Young How many people have you shot? Have you ever been a police officer or military? I won't try to sway you since your mind is made up but don't expect those fmj 45s to even phase the guy you're shooting unless you get a clean head shot. He'll keep coming until he bleeds out and loses consciousness. Where a HP will have caused a wound channel twice as large and caused much more bleeding and possibly hit an artery that your fmj missed or pushed aside.
Mark Young 4 months ago
+sgtbland Yes I am a veteran. But your comments now borders on stupidity. I know the military history of the 45 fmj round. It is a proven combat round. That is not disputed, the 45 fmj has a long proven history. So your 45 fmj comment is just pure ignorance or worse. The question is if the hollow point is better in the real world in any hand gun. The real world data says no.
sgtbland 4 months ago
+Mark Young It is better than a 9 mm in fmj but not better than a hollow point sorry. I am a veteran, a former police officer, and I currently do armed security work. I have had personal experience with fmjs like I've explained and you are just so set in your ways now that it's beyond rediculous. Show me this data that you keep referencing because I'd really like to see it.
Mark Young 4 months ago
+sgtbland I believe I was the one that change to using a FMJ in a 45.
After carrying a 40 and 9 using hollow points. The real world data convicted me to use the FMJ round in the biggest caliber I can handle. So please don't project your dogmatic mind set onto me. Nice talking to you... bye.
Demon50 2 months ago
Exactly . People forget that bone ligaments and other things like fabric play a huge role in bullet ballistics on the human body. I heard the average was 4-6 inches of penetration with most ER visits.
Frank Black 2 months ago
As you said, ballistic gel tests have little to do with the real word. For example, most perps are large males wearing heavy clothing. A JHP is going to dump its energy in clothing, fat, collagen, and bone. The FMJ is going to get past those barriers and as you said, get to the vital organs which is what is going to stop the person. You made a very good observation that most JHP fanboys do not consider. For hunting game with a rifle round, the JHP would be more appropriate IMO.
Charlie B 2 months ago
Agreed with Mark Young. In the video the hollow-point (HP) stops sooner; the FMJ keeps going and penetrates. The 9mm is a self-defense cartridge: a relatively small light bullet propelled with a mediocre amount of powder. It is intentionally weak and not designed to kill. This is a fact lost upon many people. HPs are designed to increase in diameter, transferring more of it's energy to SURROUNDING TISSUES. So the real question is- how destructive is that force to surrounding tissues? Well... 9mm didn't have a lot of force behind it to begin with. And according to various ballistics experts- the permanent wound channel from 9mm is negligible. So... this prevailing notion that 'dumping all the energy into a target' is more effective (we insinuate lethal here) versus penetration is actually flawed for the small handgun calibers. 1) the HPs apply extra force to the surrounding tissues but those tissues are elastic and transfer that force away towards other tissues as well, ultimately out into the environment. I point to the video posters own video footage as evidence- did you see that gelatin jump and wiggle with the HP? The HP applied its force to a larger area inside the gelatin making it jump and shake a little more; this force was directed outwards and away from the wound channel. The FMJ on the other hand, had more of its force applied to a concentrated point; making it drive deeper into the wound channel. I'm not a doctor. But it makes sense that more force directed at the wound channel is more lethal than letting that force dissipate into the environment. 2) The same force you feel from the recoil of your gun, full of bullets and supported by your body weight- is the same force imparted into that small lightweight bullet as it's propelled forward. Does your hand absorb the force of recoil quite easily? For 9mm it does. So 'dumping' an equivalent amount of energy into the target is not proof of lethality!
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King Conquer 1 month ago
HPs are not intended to kill instantly. ..it is to stop a threat in its tracks. Best way is to transfer as much of the bullet energy as possible into the target. With fmj the energy goes through
Charlie B 1 month ago
+King Conquer I believe your assertion ignores Physics. The level of energy 'dumped' into the target is approximately the same as the recoil forces experienced from firing the gun. Did your body get 'stopped its tracks' absorbing the recoil? Well... obviously not. Then can you support your assertion that the target will get 'stopped in its tracks' by receiving the equivalent counter-force in full?
King Conquer 1 month ago
Not counter force, just enough force to make them (or it) stop doing what it's doing.
Charlie B 1 month ago (edited)
+King Conquer "Not counter force"? We're both talking about the same force acting on the bullet. You've said the energy (force) of the bullet can 'stop a threat in its tracks' and I've applied Physics to illustrate how that's not true to the firer. In both cases the force is completely absorbed by a body.
King Conquer 1 month ago
I don't mean literally "pushing" the aggressor back. I mean causing enough force to injur the person for the time being. Make them stop the action they are doing. But what do I know? I'm just an Airborne Infantryman
Charlie B 1 month ago
+King Conquer No one ever said anything about pushing. You said "stop a threat in its tracks'. I used the laws of Physics as a counter-example to your statement and asked if you thought the Physics applied both ways. If the question goes unanswered... so be it.
You are an Airborne soldier? I served with the 101st Airborne in the Iraq war. Guess what type of weapon I was issued? A 9mm Beretta pistol. M92FS, made in Italy. I was always issued FMJ, even in training. Never HPs. A military background is not a suitable reference if you never lay hands on that type of ammunition, yes? But I thank-you for your service anyway.
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