hollow points vs fmj for defence

No they don't, with the exception of MARSOC, and even they have been using G17 and 19 "under the table" for awhile...

I'm not sure what you're saying, but what my understanding is that IN war you can't use hollow points. So maybe the military does use other calibers, but when they go to war they are using .45? That's my understanding anyways. I could be wrong.

Regardless, I'm just saying that for war in general, agencies want to use a round that makes a bigger hole since they can't use expanding ammunition.
 
i brought up the m9 9mm as you keep bringing up the 45. most of the military uses a m9.

I got that... You are correct that they are using the M9. The point of the thread is HP vs FMJ though. I think it's clear that HP is the way to go. no?

Interesting to see that the only reason the M9 is being used is because it's cost efficient vs other calibers lol...
 
I got that... You are correct that they are using the M9. The point of the thread is HP vs FMJ though. I think it's clear that HP is the way to go. no?

Interesting to see that the only reason the M9 is being used is because it's cost efficient vs other calibers lol...
cost and capacity is the ticket. i agree hp are better for the most part.
 
you should do that with those sick looking 500 magnum loads you have. i think its you im thinking about.

Not me. Got no use for one. I enjoy watching the macho men shoot theirs, pretending that they actually enjoy it. I own three .44 mags and rarely shoot mag loads as I want to enjoy what I'm doing and not get hurt by my own gun.

I shoot only hard cast 240 LSWC's and 200 gr RNFP's - no HP's and no FMJ. That's for wimp semi-autos .... :>)
 
Start watching at 2:50 or so to hear his opinion on FMJ VS HP. He kind of says it all in this video.

[youtube]nQE0e-9rCjM[/youtube]
Someone throw some Chuck Taylor into this for good measure and call it a night. Oh the classic debates...
 
It would be interesting to see hollow points vs fmj ammo tests in ballistics gel with some baby back ribs in front. Might be a better test than just ballistics gel. Head shots on pig heads would be interesting but probably not too PC :d
 
Anesthesiologist vs arm chair experts? There is no insinuation there at all.
If you decided to call the people who were actuallly involved in shootings and did a fine research on this topic the arm chair experts...I have a valid question for you.
If you believe that the FMJ is "better" which round would you rather be shoot with? Hollow point or FMJ?
Next time you decide to apply some logic to your post, you may discover that anybody who made it to the ER after being shot...wasn't neutralized all that well. In other words whoever works there, didn't see what actually works best, because usually the anesthesiologists don't work with the dead bodies. These are picked up by the coroner's office right off the street.
That Doctor is still a doctor.. I see no credentials behind your name. If you are going to call me out you better bring some actual evidence. Yes FMJ according to this source is a slightly better round for actually killing compared to HP, the over all conclusion he presented was that Rifles and Shotguns were far deadlier. He was very clear that FMJ caused more damage that would cause death due to Bleeding and Hemorrhaging due to better penetration especially near vital organs(very clear about it).. Even tho hand guns shooting victims still survive 6:7 shootings.

Seriously you have ABSOLUTELY no Academic proof. Also at this point your completely lost me.
Unless you can prove to me that you are a doctor of some sort that has dealt with gun shot injuries I will tend to stick with this Doctors conclusion then your so called "logic"

As far being shot, I rather not be shot by either. Your are seriously butt hurt to even contemplate that line of thought.

Logic.. Where exactly is yours ?
 
It would be interesting to see hollow points vs fmj ammo tests in ballistics gel with some baby back ribs in front. Might be a better test than just ballistics gel. Head shots on pig heads would be interesting but probably not too PC :d


Could prolly do it with Pig carcases.
 
That Doctor is still a doctor.. I see no credentials behind your name. If you are going to call me out you better bring some actual evidence. Yes FMJ according to this source is a slightly better round for actually killing compared to HP, the over all conclusion he presented was that Rifles and Shotguns were far deadlier. He was very clear that FMJ caused more damage that would cause death due to Bleeding and Hemorrhaging due to better penetration especially near vital organs(very clear about it).. Even tho hand guns shooting victims still survive 6:7 shootings.

Seriously you have ABSOLUTELY no Academic proof. Also at this point your completely lost me.
Unless you can prove to me that you are a doctor of some sort that has dealt with gun shot injuries I will tend to stick with this Doctors conclusion then your so called "logic"

As far being shot, I rather not be shot by either. Your are seriously butt hurt to even contemplate that line of thought.

Logic.. Where exactly is yours ?

So is any proctologist out there. Don't want to sound so anal?
Start with reading Jim Cirillo's stories and his research from Stakeout Squad of NYPD...then you may actually learn few things about the gunfights and bullets' performance.

http://www.paladin-press.com/product/Guns-Bullets-and-Gunfights/Handguns

Tons of knowledge out there for you Darling Laugh2
 
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That Doctor is still a doctor.. I see no credentials behind your name. If you are going to call me out you better bring some actual evidence. Yes FMJ according to this source is a slightly better round for actually killing compared to HP, the over all conclusion he presented was that Rifles and Shotguns were far deadlier. He was very clear that FMJ caused more damage that would cause death due to Bleeding and Hemorrhaging due to better penetration especially near vital organs(very clear about it).. Even tho hand guns shooting victims still survive 6:7 shootings.

Seriously you have ABSOLUTELY no Academic proof. Also at this point your completely lost me.
Unless you can prove to me that you are a doctor of some sort that has dealt with gun shot injuries I will tend to stick with this Doctors conclusion then your so called "logic"

As far being shot, I rather not be shot by either. Your are seriously butt hurt to even contemplate that line of thought.

Logic.. Where exactly is yours ?

A doctor is not necessarily an expert in forensic gunshot wound analysis, unless he has acquired some expertise in that particular specialty. If you research the findings of Dr Martin Fackler you will find scientifically supported findings supporting the superiority of hollow point handgun bullet wounding due to the greater size of the permanent wound cavity which results in faster blood loss and increased damage to vital organs. The FBI study made in 1989, "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness" determined that 17" of penetration is required to ensure maximum handgun bullet effectiveness, and many modern defensive handgun loading meet this criteria. Simply stating that the penetration necessary to stop a human antagonist is lacking with hollow point handgun bullets, is an oversimplification of the problem that will result in incorrect findings.
 
FMJ's were designed to not expand. Nothing to do with penetration.
The absolute best expansion comes from a lead bullet. HP's require speed to expand reliably and speed requires a jacket. Nothing to do with LE though.
In any case, none of it makes any difference. Hit what you shoot at and it'll stop bothering you. Then you'll be arrested, have allyour firearms confiscated, your licence revoked and have to spend 5 figures on a lawyer.
 
During one of my postings I became with acquainted with a Dr. who had relocated here from South Africa. He was extremely over qualified for small town work, but he brought with him a wealth of experience. He told me accounts of working in the ER in a large city in SA whereby he treated numerous gunshot wounds almost every evening. He said he could recognize a 9mm ball round wound as he merely did some quick treatment and often sent the person on their way - as long as the hit was not in vital areas, etc. More often than not, it was police officers that he sewed up from these ball round hits as that is what most of the criminals had at their disposal there. He said any caliber with a hollowpoint round was an entirely different story. Much more serious wound trauma and the outcome was not always so certain.

That being said, I asked him about the age old .45 vs 9mm debate. He said that 9mm ball was poor, but the .45 fmj round was considerably more effective in its effects on humans - but he rarely saw it used as .45 pistols are not all the rage there.

Just food for thought. I carry hp's.
 
FMJ's were designed to not expand. Nothing to do with penetration.
The absolute best expansion comes from a lead bullet. HP's require speed to expand reliably and speed requires a jacket. Nothing to do with LE though.
In any case, none of it makes any difference. Hit what you shoot at and it'll stop bothering you. Then you'll be arrested, have allyour firearms confiscated, your licence revoked and have to spend 5 figures on a lawyer.

FMJ's were designed to not expand. Nothing to do with penetration.
As the bullet nose expands, it increases in diameter and frontal area. Where bullet mass and impact velocity are the same, the the bullet with the greater frontal area encounters greater resistance with the surrounding tissue it passes through, so the velocity through the target medium decays more rapidly, and penetration is reduced, once the velocity drops below the level where supercavitation occurs. So it has everything to do with penetration, if optimum terminal performance is to be realized.

The absolute best expansion comes from a lead bullet.
The folks at Barnes, GS Custom, and Corbon have proven otherwise.

HP's require speed to expand reliably and speed requires a jacket.
The velocity required to promote the expansion of a hollowpoint bullet in a fluid medium is not particularly high, so a bullet jacket is not specifically required.

Nothing to do with LE though.
Not sure what you're referring to, as bullets don't behave differently when fired from LE pistols.

In any case, none of it makes any difference. Hit what you shoot at and it'll stop bothering you. Then you'll be arrested, have allyour firearms confiscated, your licence revoked and have to spend 5 figures on a lawyer.
This rant, whether true or not, has no bearing on the appropriateness on the choice of FMJ or HP bullets for use in service pistol ammunition, except to suggest that if you're around to worry about the legal ramifications of your actions, the ammunition you loaded in your pistol solved your particular problem.
 
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The absolute best expansion comes from a lead bullet. HP's require speed to expand reliably and speed requires a jacket. Nothing to do with LE though.
I

Incorrect. A round nose or flat point lead pistol bullet will expand not at all or very little unless it hits a bone, and even then, not very much. Jacketed softpoints might as well be hardball for all they can do unless you can push them to top magnum velocities and hit something hard like a tree. Even a swagged lead bullet, dead soft won't expand a whole lot. Jim Cirrillo (sp) is on record as saying the only effective bullet in the 38 special was the 110 gn soft lead Hollow Point, nothing else would expand and just zipped straight thru.

Since the late 80's hand gun hollow points have been engineered to open reliably at lower and lower velocities. And since they started bonding cores, you don't see them shedding their jackets and falling apart in barrier penetration either. I remember playing with speer 115 gn jacketed HP's handloaded to 1100 fps back in the late 70's. One and a half inch of pine board, and they turned inside out and broke apart. Try a gold dot and see what happens today. Any of the large makers now engineer each projectile for the velocity range it will be fired at. You can actually expect a 45 HP to open up at 675-700 FPS, and the 38 spl will do the same. Gone are the days of a standard jacket thickness where max velocity was needed to start the hydraulic deformation process.

Walk out to your local outdoor shooting range, and dig in the back stop a bit and you'll find 38, 9mm and 45 in such good condition you swear you could load em and fire em again. I've brought a few home and miked em to see what distortion there was, generally only the tip is deformed, assuming the ground was dry and hard. If it's wet or soft, they look like new.
 
During one of my postings I became with acquainted with a Dr. who had relocated here from South Africa. He was extremely over qualified for small town work, but he brought with him a wealth of experience. He told me accounts of working in the ER in a large city in SA whereby he treated numerous gunshot wounds almost every evening. He said he could recognize a 9mm ball round wound as he merely did some quick treatment and often sent the person on their way - as long as the hit was not in vital areas, etc. More often than not, it was police officers that he sewed up from these ball round hits as that is what most of the criminals had at their disposal there. He said any caliber with a hollowpoint round was an entirely different story. Much more serious wound trauma and the outcome was not always so certain.

That being said, I asked him about the age old .45 vs 9mm debate. He said that 9mm ball was poor, but the .45 fmj round was considerably more effective in its effects on humans - but he rarely saw it used as .45 pistols are not all the rage there.

Just food for thought. I carry hp's.

like the saying goes for .45 fmj, they all fall to hardball.
 
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