Fassteel said:
My point is, in most cases, the increase alone is worth more than the metals in the ammo. There are reports of rifle ammo increases of $4 a box. Do some research. There is not $4.00 worth of metals in most boxes of ammo.
Holy Crap, Ammo Prices Are Up In The Us!
- Thread starter CALIFORNIA
- Start date
My point is, in most cases, the increase alone is worth more than the metals in the ammo. There are reports of rifle ammo increases of $4 a box. Do some research. There is not $4.00 worth of metals in most boxes of ammo.
redleg said:
My example was 22lr. What do you think 50-22lr hulls weigh? I bet they don't weigh an ounce. Even if brass was $3.00 a pound, which it is not, there would still only be less than $0.20 worth of brass in a box of 22lr.
Copper prices have certainly driven certain crimes in the Greater Victoria area. Copper wiring is vanishing from worksites, abandoned buildings, just about everywhere it can be found. And most of the goofs stealing it haven't a clue about things like, uh, electricity...as one felon found out the hard way last week in Saanich:
Local Man Electocuted - Crews Were Surprised He Survived!
Copper Wire Too Big of a Temptation for Local Man
A 36 year old local man well known to police is recovering in hospital after being electrocuted with enough power that local hydro crews could not believe he survived. According to hydro crews there was enough power in the line to turn the man to ashes.
On Wednesday, February 14, 2007, at 7:10 am, Saanich Police officers responded to the old Victoria Christian Academy on Carey Rd for a man who was electrocuted while cutting into the main power line for the academy.
The man armed with a pair of bolt cutters was attempting to cut through a large power cable when he was electrocuted. Officers noted a large sign next to the area he was cutting into that clearly indicated the potential danger. The man was taken to Victoria General Hospital by Provincial Ambulance crews and is listed in serious but stable condition. He received multiple burns and is being treated in hospital.
Saanich Police investigators have already served the suspect with a Promise to Appear compelling him to appear in Provincial Court on March 30, 2007. He is facing criminal charges of theft.
“The theft of copper wiring and plumbing continues to be a problem even though the price of copper has gone down in recent months,” said Sgt John Price. “Who is buying from these thieves and what if any polices or restrictions are in place to protect businesses and home owners from falling victim to this type of theft.”
Local Man Electocuted - Crews Were Surprised He Survived!
Copper Wire Too Big of a Temptation for Local Man
A 36 year old local man well known to police is recovering in hospital after being electrocuted with enough power that local hydro crews could not believe he survived. According to hydro crews there was enough power in the line to turn the man to ashes.
On Wednesday, February 14, 2007, at 7:10 am, Saanich Police officers responded to the old Victoria Christian Academy on Carey Rd for a man who was electrocuted while cutting into the main power line for the academy.
The man armed with a pair of bolt cutters was attempting to cut through a large power cable when he was electrocuted. Officers noted a large sign next to the area he was cutting into that clearly indicated the potential danger. The man was taken to Victoria General Hospital by Provincial Ambulance crews and is listed in serious but stable condition. He received multiple burns and is being treated in hospital.
Saanich Police investigators have already served the suspect with a Promise to Appear compelling him to appear in Provincial Court on March 30, 2007. He is facing criminal charges of theft.
“The theft of copper wiring and plumbing continues to be a problem even though the price of copper has gone down in recent months,” said Sgt John Price. “Who is buying from these thieves and what if any polices or restrictions are in place to protect businesses and home owners from falling victim to this type of theft.”
When i went to a local 'wholesale' sports place the other day, the answer i got when i commented on an increased price for primers, brass, and bullets, was 'there's a war going on'........
Honestly, i think it's an excuse/reason for profit.
Just like the gasoline at the pump prices.
Honestly, i think it's an excuse/reason for profit.
Just like the gasoline at the pump prices.
joe-nwt said:
I think it is more than $3 a pound, I can't see a recycler giving me close to half the value of brass for my scrap. And 22 ammo is not going up $4 a box it is going up about 20% in price. You may also want to look at the value of the $Cdn. It dropped about 8-10% from where it was last year. So it sure looks to me like currency fluctuations and commodity prices add up to the increased costs.
If you want to blame war profiteers or greedy ammo companies feel free though.
redleg said:
Sigh.....
In the first two posts people asked why ammo went up in price, the first poster suggested ammo went up 20%, the second said some doubled.Then someone suggested it was the price of metals. I said I didn't think so, offered some numbers to support my beliefs and suggested more reserch could be done. But its easier to belittle me isn't it?
OK. Brass is approx 70% copper and 30% zinc. Todays market price for copper is approx $2.65@lb and Zinc is about $1.57@lb. Roughly, brass is worth, $2.32@lb for the metals.
So lets take a box of 308 ammo. Cases are what, about 155gr each? X 20/7000= .44lbs. or about $1.02 worth of brass.
Let's look at the bullets. Let's say they are 180gr. Now I have no idea what the ratio of jacket (guilding) material to lead is but, I'm gonna use 20% and I think that would be a generous amount of the more expensive metal. 180gr x 20rounds/7000 = .51lbs bullet material.
.51 x .80(lead content) x.85(current price) =$0.35
Now lets be even more generous and say the jacket material is pure copper. It isn't.
.51 x .20(jacket content) x 2.65(current price) = $0.27
Added up the metals in our box of 308, at todays prices, cost about $1.64.
Even if all the metals doubled recently, the price increase due to metals should be roughly $0.82 in our example.
Not $4.00.
Not doubled.
So if my numbers are approximately right, heck I may have something wrong here, you tell me, then metals alone are not the cause of the big price increases some people are seeing.
So you tell me what it is then.
All right Joe, lets leave the metals alone. Why the big increase from all the manufacturers all at the same time, collusion? And why on all products, shotshells, rimfire, centerfire. And there is house wiring doubling in price, copper tubing, alluminum tubing has gone up 5 times what it was. I guess you could do same calculations with all these other goods, would you still come to the same conclusion that you have with ammo pricing? FS
HA.......time to start recovering that lead from berms...lot of $$$$$$$$$$
I could see the prices of 5.56mm, 7.62Nato and 7.62x39 going up in price (the latter being purchased by the US for the new Iraqi and Afghan military), perhaps even primers or 9mm, but it's hard to understand anything more than a 10-15% jump for the other calibres. And yet even bullets in non-military calibres are going up considerably.....
Could legislation controlling the production and distribution of ammunition be a factor? Sweden is facing a ban on lead ammo for 2008, and it's unsure whether Norma will still be able to export lead ammo. The mercuric content of the 30.06 ammo that Marstar tried importing a few years ago was apparently the reason for it's importation being halted by the federal government. And I've also heard on various boards that some auto dealers were getting hesitant to sell wheel weights to bullet casters on the grounds that they had to account for them all for environmental/regulatory reasons. The switch to Zinc wheel weights among many car manufacturers to the bane of bullet casters, has been another consequence of government regulations. Might there be US federal regulations that have raised the costs associated with producing products that utilize lead, or other base components of ammunition? We've all seen how shooting ranges have been shut down over the years due to regulations that demanded the installation of expensive ventilation systems, and I've recently learned that the CF has recently adopted a policy of regularly extracting fired bullets from the berms of its ranges due to environmental regulations. If I recall correctly, the added cost to waterfowlers of switching to steel shot, was largely due to the start-up costs of manufacturers having to re-tool for steel shot production, which is more costly to create into pellets than lead. Though I'm just throwing out observations off the top of my head, these don't point towards ammo production becoming any cheaper in the future.
Might there also be further regulations regarding the storage and distribution of ammo (in the US) that would increase costs on the manufacturers? Thank heavens it doesn't make the evening news when a US Walmart loses track of 2-300 rounds of ammunition like it did here in Canada!
When I discover that Hogdon, IMR and Winchester powders are all owned or distributed by the same company, or that Berretta, Stoeger, Browning, and Benelli and other firearms manufacturers are part of the same growing consortium, it does make one wonder whether similar trends are taking place among ammunition and component manufacturers, allowing them to raise prices should they choose to do so. If I recall correctly, bismuth was discovered as an effective alternative to steel shot just a few years after the major ammo producers had invested a considerable sum into setting up for steel shot production. It appears as though Olin quickly purchased the patent from the Canadian who discovered the idea and then proceeded to market Bismuth as the premium (i.e. super expensive) alternative to steel. I'd be very curious to see how the costs of the base metals used in the bismuth alloy or its production process would explain the premium cost of bismuth. In addition to potentially undercutting steel shot, reasonably priced bismuth shells would have prevented the practical obsolescence of many older, tighter choked hunting shotguns. I doubt that the people at Remington or other gun/ammo manufacturers lamented that fact.
There is also the issue of rising labour costs. I suspect that given time, not even ammo from Russia or China will be much cheaper to produce than domestic ammo. If the US ammo companies start buying foreign ammo producers up as thoroughly as Eastern European gunmakers have been bought up by American manufacturers, they will effectively quell foreign competition against domestic prices, even while the labour costs and production remain cheaper overseas.
These thoughts are mostly speculative, though I'd be interesting to hear if anyone else here has had more experience to confirm or dispel some of my suggestions.
Regards,
Frank
Could legislation controlling the production and distribution of ammunition be a factor? Sweden is facing a ban on lead ammo for 2008, and it's unsure whether Norma will still be able to export lead ammo. The mercuric content of the 30.06 ammo that Marstar tried importing a few years ago was apparently the reason for it's importation being halted by the federal government. And I've also heard on various boards that some auto dealers were getting hesitant to sell wheel weights to bullet casters on the grounds that they had to account for them all for environmental/regulatory reasons. The switch to Zinc wheel weights among many car manufacturers to the bane of bullet casters, has been another consequence of government regulations. Might there be US federal regulations that have raised the costs associated with producing products that utilize lead, or other base components of ammunition? We've all seen how shooting ranges have been shut down over the years due to regulations that demanded the installation of expensive ventilation systems, and I've recently learned that the CF has recently adopted a policy of regularly extracting fired bullets from the berms of its ranges due to environmental regulations. If I recall correctly, the added cost to waterfowlers of switching to steel shot, was largely due to the start-up costs of manufacturers having to re-tool for steel shot production, which is more costly to create into pellets than lead. Though I'm just throwing out observations off the top of my head, these don't point towards ammo production becoming any cheaper in the future.
Might there also be further regulations regarding the storage and distribution of ammo (in the US) that would increase costs on the manufacturers? Thank heavens it doesn't make the evening news when a US Walmart loses track of 2-300 rounds of ammunition like it did here in Canada!
When I discover that Hogdon, IMR and Winchester powders are all owned or distributed by the same company, or that Berretta, Stoeger, Browning, and Benelli and other firearms manufacturers are part of the same growing consortium, it does make one wonder whether similar trends are taking place among ammunition and component manufacturers, allowing them to raise prices should they choose to do so. If I recall correctly, bismuth was discovered as an effective alternative to steel shot just a few years after the major ammo producers had invested a considerable sum into setting up for steel shot production. It appears as though Olin quickly purchased the patent from the Canadian who discovered the idea and then proceeded to market Bismuth as the premium (i.e. super expensive) alternative to steel. I'd be very curious to see how the costs of the base metals used in the bismuth alloy or its production process would explain the premium cost of bismuth. In addition to potentially undercutting steel shot, reasonably priced bismuth shells would have prevented the practical obsolescence of many older, tighter choked hunting shotguns. I doubt that the people at Remington or other gun/ammo manufacturers lamented that fact.
There is also the issue of rising labour costs. I suspect that given time, not even ammo from Russia or China will be much cheaper to produce than domestic ammo. If the US ammo companies start buying foreign ammo producers up as thoroughly as Eastern European gunmakers have been bought up by American manufacturers, they will effectively quell foreign competition against domestic prices, even while the labour costs and production remain cheaper overseas.
These thoughts are mostly speculative, though I'd be interesting to hear if anyone else here has had more experience to confirm or dispel some of my suggestions.
Regards,
Frank
Fassteel said:
I didn't say the price of metals didn't go up. I said there is not enough metal in a box of ammo to warrent a $4.00 increase in a box of ammo as suggested by one poster. And I showed some numbers to that effect.
A roll of house wire weighs what? 15lbs? The weight of the roll is mostly the copper. So lets say the old price of a roll of copper wire was based on $1.10@lb copper. And we used to pay $30.00 a roll. You will find with some research there is about 9.25 lbs of copper in a 75m roll of 14/2 NMD-90. So roughly 33% or $10.25 of the cost of the roll of wire was the actual copper. The rest must be the cost of the insulation and manufacturing costs. Or about $20.00.
For a while copper went to about $3.50@lb. Suddenly the copper value of that same roll of wire is $32.40 but the insulation and manufacturing costs might stay the same at $20.00. So now that roll is approaching the double price mark, because of the metal content of the final product.
In my ammo example the cost of the metal in the finished product is minimal compred to the overall cost of the product. The orinal cost of the metals was about 5% of the total cost of the ammo in a $15.00 box of ammo, after doubling the cost of the metals it still only amount to about 10% of the total cost.
So I say the metals are not the total cause of the price increase.
Is there something wrong with this thinking, did I miss something?
As to why we see the increase across the board from all manufacturers, I don't know. Perhaps we are getting a real taste of the new "global economy". Otherwise known as what the market will bear. You tell me.
If you guys want to talk supply and demand, then if anything, the price of ammo should go down. There's alot more demand for ammo these days, so thus, the price should go down. Obviously the people doing the selling have started to tinker with their numbers.
I think the recent rise in prices really is gouging. It's not one company or compontent of the firearms industry that's doing all of it, but probably a combination of metal mining companies, refining comapnies, ammo producers, and distributors all together. They know there's a high demand right now so they're adjusting their price fitting curves. Everybody's making a couple pennies more and we're SOL because thanks to major conflicts across the workd right now sport shooters make up such a small portion of the munition sales market to bring the price fitting curves back down.
I think the recent rise in prices really is gouging. It's not one company or compontent of the firearms industry that's doing all of it, but probably a combination of metal mining companies, refining comapnies, ammo producers, and distributors all together. They know there's a high demand right now so they're adjusting their price fitting curves. Everybody's making a couple pennies more and we're SOL because thanks to major conflicts across the workd right now sport shooters make up such a small portion of the munition sales market to bring the price fitting curves back down.
Big JD-From the hills
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Saskatchewan.
I don't think the price of ammo is that bad now, back in the 30's 40's and 50's I think they were paying a crapload!
joe-nwt said:Sigh.....
Then someone suggested it was the price of metals. I said I didn't think so, offered some numbers to support my beliefs and suggested more reserch could be done. But its easier to belittle me isn't it?
OK. Brass is approx 70% copper and 30% zinc. Todays market price for copper is approx $2.65@lb and Zinc is about $1.57@lb. Roughly, brass is worth, $2.32@lb for the metals.
So lets take a box of 308 ammo. Cases are what, about 155gr each? X 20/7000= .44lbs. or about $1.02 worth of brass.
Let's look at the bullets. Let's say they are 180gr. Now I have no idea what the ratio of jacket (guilding) material to lead is but, I'm gonna use 20% and I think that would be a generous amount of the more expensive metal. 180gr x 20rounds/7000 = .51lbs bullet material.
.51 x .80(lead content) x.85(current price) =$0.35
Now lets be even more generous and say the jacket material is pure copper. It isn't.
.51 x .20(jacket content) x 2.65(current price) = $0.27
Added up the metals in our box of 308, at todays prices, cost about $1.64.
Even if all the metals doubled recently, the price increase due to metals should be roughly $0.82 in our example.
Not $4.00.
Not doubled.
So if my numbers are approximately right, heck I may have something wrong here, you tell me, then metals alone are not the cause of the big price increases some people are seeing.
So you tell me what it is then.
Sigh...
OK, so the cost of metals brings the price up 10% and currency exchange brings the price up 10% and there is the 20% increase accounted for. I'm not sure where folks are getting the doubling of prices, not from the manufacturers. We buy lots of ammo and it is going up about 20%. Not $4 and not doubled.
I also think you are underestimating the cost of brass, as once again my floor sweepings have aluminum and steel casings mixed in. It is used rather than new brass and I get $1.25/lb for it. I really doubt the recycler is picking it up only to make $1.07/lb.
Don't forget that almost every major ammo plant in the world is running full tilt to supply miltary contracts. There is also the issue of many countries closing down there production facilities over the last few decades. The US now has only one gov production facility, Lake city. They had several during Vietnam. Most governments pay between USD$0.75 and $USD1.50 per round for 5.56 ammo (I don't know what the US pays). But you get the idea - why sell to shooters when govs are paying top dollar? Some plants like IMI and Poongsan have basically told their long time clients to take a hike now that they are supplying the US. IWI cannot even get IMI ammo to test the Tavor, they had to order it from S&B in CZ!!
I believe it is a resurected need of making the manufacturing of ammunition a very profitable business. As they are dependant of any law US might come up with (the dreaded ban is still on the table), they seize the opportunity rose from the war. A steady client means a sure business. If things go south, the higher prices soported now would be offset by the "sale" that would follow.
Other sources quote the need to do all these long time ago, caused by manufacturing costs...etc.
What seems very unusual is that the price on the 22LR has doubled, while some of the rest has only slightly increased. Weird to say the least. Maybe the Chinese plinking stuff is for real
Other sources quote the need to do all these long time ago, caused by manufacturing costs...etc.
What seems very unusual is that the price on the 22LR has doubled, while some of the rest has only slightly increased. Weird to say the least. Maybe the Chinese plinking stuff is for real
USD$0.75 and $USD1.50 per round for 5.56 ammo.
You mean't cents not dollar. This is certainly not true or my former government has some magicians on board. (5 pfennings a round.)
You mean't cents not dollar. This is certainly not true or my former government has some magicians on board. (5 pfennings a round.)
OK, so far we have:
*increased metal prices (lead, copper, brass)
*increased demand (wars)
*tighter environmental regulations (lead, mercury, etc)
*manufacturer monopolies
*lower Canadian Dollar value
And one thing no one has mentioned yet: Increased fuel and energy prices.
What powers the machines that mine the raw materials? The machines that transport them to the factories? The machines that make the ammo (coal fired electrical plants?)? The trucks and trains that deliver the finished product?
It's all connected and I doubt only one factor can be blamed, when you add everything up, the price increases sort of make sense. It was due to happen sometime. Prices on consumer goods go up a little every year... it's just too bad our salaries are slow to catch up.
*increased metal prices (lead, copper, brass)
*increased demand (wars)
*tighter environmental regulations (lead, mercury, etc)
*manufacturer monopolies
*lower Canadian Dollar value
And one thing no one has mentioned yet: Increased fuel and energy prices.
What powers the machines that mine the raw materials? The machines that transport them to the factories? The machines that make the ammo (coal fired electrical plants?)? The trucks and trains that deliver the finished product?
It's all connected and I doubt only one factor can be blamed, when you add everything up, the price increases sort of make sense. It was due to happen sometime. Prices on consumer goods go up a little every year... it's just too bad our salaries are slow to catch up.
redleg said:
I was addressing the $4.00/double increase based on metal prices. But you sure seem to be defensive all of a sudden.
You know what? I can't really commrent as I've been saving brass for years and have never cashed it in yet.
What I can comment on is the price of copper.
I am an electrician, I sell scrap copper all the time and I can tell you the scrap dealers work on a much smaller margin than $1.07@lb.
I'm saying noting else, I've put my numbers forward. Your turn..........
