Home defense/ Bean bag ammo

Don't deal in half measures. If your life is in danger, why play around? Better him than you. Why is it such a persistent myth that you are not allowed to defend yourself in Canada? NOTE: It is perfectly legal to defend yourself in Canada. You have the right to defend the lives of you and your family. This subject has been beaten to death. What does it come down to?

1 - what you say to the police
2 - what the police see with their own eyes. You'll have a hard time claiming self defense if you pump 100 rounds into an intruder, or shoot him in the back.

There's much more detail to consider here, but you should read for yourself and decide, as I am not a lawyer. Check out these threads, one of which is from a police officer:

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/832359-It-s-all-in-what-you-say

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/foru...gun-for-Self-Defence-in-Seconds-and-Its-Legal

In a nutshell: if you are faced with an attacker and you feel your life is in danger, you are allowed to use any reasonable amount of force up to, and including, lethal, to save yourself. The end. Just don't say something stupid to the police afterwards. "I was afraid for my life. Can I speak to my lawyer now?" is pretty much all you need.
 
popcanhunter said:
bringing a gun into play is telling the intruder "you need to kill me right now if you wish to survive this". MAKE SURE that is what you want to tell him before you do so.

do some research on home invasions... how many of them involve fatalities? probably not many.... so why esclate the situation into a deathmatch when batting practice will probably suffice, hurt your ears less, make less mess, not hit unintended targets, and be sooooo much easier to explain to a judge.
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Buzzer sound...wrong answer.

Your position is clearly isolated to one who is physically, mentally capable of defending themself against an opponent who is very likely to be bigger, stronger, experienced at fighting and also very likely willing to do so as well as will have the upper hand of being swithched on, aware and have the element of surprise as they came to the BBQ as the predator and you will be woken from sleep, ill prepared, etc.

I am not too comfortable with my wife or daughter engaging in a physical confrontation with an intruder hand to hand, bat, tennis racket or anything that doesn't give them the best posssble upper hand over the defective human that has breached our home or is demonstrating any degree of intent to harm.
IF they have to resort to basic defense and or whatever is readily available so be it....but to suggest that should be their first choice is ridiculous.

And all machismo aside.....most regular run of the mill men will prolly not fair too well either in a hand to hand or blunt object fight with a determined amped up criminal who is in predator mode when they are likely right from sleep and caught off guard....and that's when there's just one...which isn't likely either.

It becomes a potential death match when someone corners me or my family in our home and or displays intent to grievously harm us....that's on THEM....NOT US.
We are gonna play to win....and it will prolly make a mess, be loud, may involve collateral damage and may well be tough to articulate after the fact to a left wing system/judge/jury etc......

Oh and the research about home invasions....so if not many are fatal but just a percentage are..... what's acceptable gambling odds? Oh and of the ones that aren't fatal what were the outcomes rather than death.....### assault, injury, PTSD

Its a sad commentary that the left wing bias in this wonderful country has us frowning on defending ourselves in our own homes and or from grievous injury...............
 
my town had the highest rate of B&E for a couple consecutive years (i think we fell off a year or two ago). i know several victims. there were zero rapes, zero murders. every single case was assault and robbery. nothing that can't be recovered from faster than a murder rap.

and im pretty sure if i awoke to an intruder, my adrenaline glands would have me "switched on" pretty damn quick, and MUCH moreso than an intruders.
 
Well you do what you have to, to protect your family. I know that the previous owners were broken into here, i found this out after the incident with the neighbors
 
StiffDrink said:
Heres a thought, is it better to use non lethal ammo for home defense in canada, seeing as though the thought of home defense is taboo in here. Would it be better to just injure or incapacitate with a solid bean bag or rubber bullet shot to centre mass. This thought occured as I heard my neighbors alarm go off the other night and went to the window to see 3 people running up an ally way. I called the cops as did they.

Thoughts and ideas about this?
Click to expand...

the thought and idea is you get a nice big heavy phone, if someone breaks in, you take the phone and hide somewhere, dial 911 with that phone, and if the intruders find you and want to do you harm, then you can use the phone to throw at them.
 
Bean bag rounds? Really? If I feel there is enough of a threat to take a gun out of the safe, it's damn well going to be loaded with real bullets. Dealing with the authorities comes later in the presence of a lawyer.
 
If your pointing a gun at someone that is the issue. Doesn't matter what's loaded. You could fire warning shots buuuut look how that turned out for Ian Thomson. They will come down on you just the same.

At the end of the day if the situation calls for the need of a gun, don't risk your life by half assing it. I'm not advocating using deadly force as the best answer, but if your life is being threatened I wouldn't play around with my life or that of my families.

Dogzilla beat me to it
 
I find it amazing how many times people say this or that is/isn't highly likely/unlikely. Sounds like they have a little scenario all planned out. He's gonna come in from this door here, I'll wake up to the dog barking and instantly jump to my safe in the basement, unlock it, grab my favourite gun, unlock the ammo locker, grab a loaded mag, make ready then its on! Come at me bro! I've practiced this a hundred times! WTF? You haven't got a clue who is going to show up, how many buddies he brought, what he's carrying, what his intent is or what he might do. Don't be so stupid as to think you have anything figured out. Deal with s**t the best you can, as it comes. Any other attitude is f**king dangerous. Having a plan to get to your preferred detterent or weapon is all good but be ready for anything. Don't ever think you've got him figured out.
 
popcanhunter said:
my town had the highest rate of B&E for a couple consecutive years (i think we fell off a year or two ago). i know several victims. there were zero rapes, zero murders. every single case was assault and robbery. nothing that can't be recovered from faster than a murder rap.

and im pretty sure if i awoke to an intruder, my adrenaline glands would have me "switched on" pretty damn quick, and MUCH moreso than an intruders.
Click to expand...


As a professional Paramedic for over 26yrs....I've seen the real face of "simple assualt and rape".....U think being raped/seriously assaulted is a simple "get over it???
U think recovery from a serious head injury is the same???? How about life changing grief, aggravation, pain and suffering, inability to work/love/live.
You likely haven't seen what happens to a 90lb girl when they are punched in the head even once by a full sized aggressor? Or worse yet a single head blow from a hammer or single stab wound to the torso
That is the reality for many of the victims....who "survive"

Pretty sure most of these victims if they had it to play out again would choose fatality/grievous injury for the predator and them on the unharmed side of the ledger....and take their chances with the system.

Are you a parent? The choice between my daughter being grievously and or ###ually assaulted and either of us dealing with the courts after the fact in a criminal manner is an easy one........

I'm a level headed, reasonable and peaceful individual. I am also educated and professional. Not an internet ninja or "nut".
I am also worldy, realistic and pragmatic.
Anyone intent on or carrying out violence on me or my family will not be afforded quarter or mercy......regardless of the circumstances or conditions of the crisis.

BTW Without detail....My family was the victim of a home invasion not long ago. Occured while my wife/children and I were asleep in our home. The full grown man, high on drugs, used a screwdriver as his weapon of opportunity that he grabbed while making his way into our home thru the garage. I had the misfortune of being startled from a dead sleep and having to confront him in my home while naked, unarmed and in the dark. After a hand to hand scuffle I ended up overpowering him and restraining him til the cops arrived some 20 min later. Fortunately....and through mostly luck, I was not stabbed or otherwise injured.
He was arrested, charged...and then released with charges dropped aprox 6 mos later.

Not my 1st BBQ
 
My (unprofessional) opinion, if you hear your door being kicked in and you only before dealing with an unknown number of intruders with unknown motives, arm yourself with whatever you have that will insure the threat against yourself or your family will be neutralized as quickly as possible. In my mind this would be a shotgun loaded with 000 buckshot. If you have to fire(with any buckshot or bean bags) then it is because of an immediate and potentially fatal threat, and that is precisely when you want to stop the threat as soon and efficiently as possible.
 
First off a few things:

Self defense is legal in Canada
Self defense with a firearm is legal
There is no such law that planning for self defense is illegal

Now the situation at hand.

Using or hoping to use less lethal ammunition as a private person is retarded and in most cases brought up in these threads also illegal.

Lets start off with the bad idea part then we will go into the legality's of it.

Any time less lethal ammunition is used it is a situation where deadly force is required and is being used by police to resolve the situation with out killing the dude. This is done to placate the media and other BS public relations reasons. It is also always covered by one or more officers with lethal ammunition cover to protect the officer with less lethal and be used if the less lethal does not have the desired effect.

So unless you are clearing you house with a spouse providing lethal cover its a non starter.

There are also the training considerations to think about. If you can not answer these questions you don't have the required training to use less lethal safely or effectively:

1) what is the effective range?
2) what is the minimum safe distance for use?
3) which types can be shot directly at a person and which types have to be ricocheted off the ground ( ie, rubber buck, rubber slug, bean bag, hickory baton, regular baton, etc etc)
4) what are the target areas of the human body that these are deemed to be less lethal on and what are them deemed to be lethal on?

Now lets take a look at the legal side of it.

If you think using this ammunition will allow you to use a firearm in a situation where you otherwise would not be able to. You are wrong and it will send you to prison.

As a private citizen the only time you can point a firearm at someone let alone shoot it at them is when you fear grievous bodily harm or death to your self or another. At which time someone needs shooting with lead not bean bags.

Shawn
 
There seems to be some misinformation around concerning self defence and the defence of property . These are covered in the Criminal Code of Canada . Self defence is covered in Sect. 34 and Defence of Property is covered in Sect. 35 , both are based on the reasonable person test . In short , if someone is in your home and you fear for the safety of yourself and your family , you are jstified in using force if it is reasonable . If things get to this point , do not depend on Bean Bags , you may only have one chance to defend yourself or your family.....MAKE IT COUNT !
 
shawn said:
First off a few things:

Self defense is legal in Canada
Self defense with a firearm is legal
There is no such law that planning for self defense is illegal

Now the situation at hand.

Using or hoping to use less lethal ammunition as a private person is retarded and in most cases brought up in these threads also illegal.

Lets start off with the bad idea part then we will go into the legality's of it.

Any time less lethal ammunition is used it is a situation where deadly force is required and is being used by police to resolve the situation with out killing the dude. This is done to placate the media and other BS public relations reasons. It is also always covered by one or more officers with lethal ammunition cover to protect the officer with less lethal and be used if the less lethal does not have the desired effect.

So unless you are clearing you house with a spouse providing lethal cover its a non starter.

There are also the training considerations to think about. If you can not answer these questions you don't have the required training to use less lethal safely or effectively:

1) what is the effective range?
2) what is the minimum safe distance for use?
3) which types can be shot directly at a person and which types have to be ricocheted off the ground ( ie, rubber buck, rubber slug, bean bag, hickory baton, regular baton, etc etc)
4) what are the target areas of the human body that these are deemed to be less lethal on and what are them deemed to be lethal on?

Now lets take a look at the legal side of it.

If you think using this ammunition will allow you to use a firearm in a situation where you otherwise would not be able to. You are wrong and it will send you to prison.

As a private citizen the only time you can point a firearm at someone let alone shoot it at them is when you fear grievous bodily harm or death to your self or another. At which time someone needs shooting with lead not bean bags.

Shawn
Click to expand...

This right here! LL rounds are great, when used properly and when you have cover by someone with a lethal option. Like a lot of people have said, if you're pulling out a gun then you sure as #### shoot to kill that person if they don't surrender and stay face down following your commands. I'd much rather go through the system and risk jail time protecting my family than have that last minute thought of how I wish I'd shot while I bleed to death on my floor listening to my family suffer.

Also with the hand to hand combat idea. . . I've been in the Infantry for years and have trained in h2h. I still wouldn't feel comfortable going head to head with some dude (most likely high) if I had the option of arming myself, h2h is a worst case scenario. I think there's too many people out there that have watched UFC a little too much. Next time you go to the gym, bring a buddy along and try grappling for 2 minutes straight. It really takes the wind out of you. . . now just imagine it's 2 or 3 people you're against (adrenaline can only get you so far).
 
It's good to be prepared for such situations but dont let yourself go crazy thinking about it. It will most likely never happen in my life time but if i am faced with such a situation i hope i will do whatever i can with what ever i find to defend my woman and kids there with me and myself second...i beleive that laws will be the very last thing in my mind at that moment, i'll deal with that later. I have faith in myself to not go too far for nothing. I'll probably send the wife to get the rifle ready while i go acess the situation with a object that can be used to defend myself against a knife.

Fill some 12gauge shells with rock salt if you feel you need too, i think that was done at one point..never did it myself though so i'm not sure if its good or not.
 
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Problem with using a bat or stick or other stiking weapon is you need to be close to the intruder to use it.Which is fine for some but how many people can actually swing a bat hard enough to render a intruder inoperable with the first blow before he takes it away from them and uses it on you instead. Same with a knife. The 12 foot rule comes in to play here for a reason. I always figure the tried by 12 instead of carried by 6 comes into perfect context here.
I can tell you just how many years it takes to deal with a victim of rape and it's not over yet and it happened in 1986 so there is many more years to go. Unless a beanbag does a really good job of hurting someone I would guess a tiney piece of lead would be the better choice.
 
ALMAR said:
It's good to be prepared for such situations but dont let yourself go crazy thinking about it. It will most likely never happen in my life time but if i am faced with such a situation i hope i will do whatever i can with what ever i find to defend my woman and kids there with me and myself second...i beleive that laws will be the very last thing in my mind at that moment, i'll deal with that later. I have faith in myself to not go too far for nothing. I'll probably send the wife to get the rifle ready while i go acess the situation with a object that can be used to defend myself against a knife.
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While I agree not to go crazy for it, you do need to think about, make a plan and practice it.

If you do not you will not be able to do it under stress. The human brain works like a Rolodex, when something happens to you it looks for similar things you have already experienced to guide you through the situation at hand. If there is no "card" for a similar situation you go back to square one and have to and try to think your way through what is happening. This is where the deer in headlights, or vapor lock thing comes from. That is people that have never planned, thought about or experienced a situation and they lock up as their brain tries to think it way though a completely new an what was to the person an un thinkable thing.

That is why police, military, firefighters, paramedics, nurses etc do the training they do. So when it happens for real their brains already have a frame of reference for the situation and are able to work through the problem far more quickly and with better results than if they had no frame of reference.

ALMAR said:
Fill some 12gauge shells with rock salt if you feel you need too, i think that was done at one point..never did it myself though so i'm not sure if its good or not.
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Same issues as less lethal, except now you have the added liability about ammunition you manufactured in the mix

Raton57 said:
Problem with using a bat or stick or other stiking weapon is you need to be close to the intruder to use it.Which is fine for some but how many people can actually swing a bat hard enough to render a intruder inoperable with the first blow before he takes it away from them and uses it on you instead. Same with a knife. The 12 foot rule comes in to play here for a reason. I always figure the tried by 12 instead of carried by 6 comes into perfect context here.
I can tell you just how many years it takes to deal with a victim of rape and it's not over yet and it happened in 1986 so there is many more years to go. Unless a beanbag does a really good job of hurting someone I would guess a tiney piece of lead would be the better choice.
Click to expand...

The Tuller drill is 21 feet not 12.

Shawn
 
shawn said:
first off a few things:

Self defense is legal in canada
self defense with a firearm is legal
there is no such law that planning for self defense is illegal

now the situation at hand.

Using or hoping to use less lethal ammunition as a private person is retarded and in most cases brought up in these threads also illegal.

Lets start off with the bad idea part then we will go into the legality's of it.

Any time less lethal ammunition is used it is a situation where deadly force is required and is being used by police to resolve the situation with out killing the dude. This is done to placate the media and other bs public relations reasons. It is also always covered by one or more officers with lethal ammunition cover to protect the officer with less lethal and be used if the less lethal does not have the desired effect.

So unless you are clearing you house with a spouse providing lethal cover its a non starter.

There are also the training considerations to think about. If you can not answer these questions you don't have the required training to use less lethal safely or effectively:

1) what is the effective range?
2) what is the minimum safe distance for use?
3) which types can be shot directly at a person and which types have to be ricocheted off the ground ( ie, rubber buck, rubber slug, bean bag, hickory baton, regular baton, etc etc)
4) what are the target areas of the human body that these are deemed to be less lethal on and what are them deemed to be lethal on?

Now lets take a look at the legal side of it.

If you think using this ammunition will allow you to use a firearm in a situation where you otherwise would not be able to. You are wrong and it will send you to prison.

As a private citizen the only time you can point a firearm at someone let alone shoot it at them is when you fear grievous bodily harm or death to your self or another. At which time someone needs shooting with lead not bean bags.

Shawn
Click to expand...

This^^^^ thanks for saving me the time shawn
 
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