How accurate do you strive to be?

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Cbf123

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There's a school of thought that figures out the kill zone on the animal in question then zeros the rifle so that anything from close range out to the max point blank range (MPBR) will fall within the kill zone. The idea here being that as long as the animal is closer than the MPBR you just aim dead-on and shoot. (Longer description at http://www.chuckhawks.com/mpbr_hunting.htm and yes the typo is theirs.)

I'm curious how many of you use this method, and how many of you measure/guess the range and either dial elevation (harder with typical hunting scopes) or use holdover/holdunder for an "exact" hit?
 
Cbf123 said:
There's a school of thought that figures out the kill zone on the animal in question then zeros the rifle so that anything from close range out to the max point blank range (MPBR) will fall within the kill zone. The idea here being that as long as the animal is closer than the MPBR you just aim dead-on and shoot. (Longer description at http://www.chuckhawks.com/mpbr_hunting.htm and yes the typo is theirs.)

I'm curious how many of you use this method, and how many of you measure/guess the range and either dial elevation (harder with typical hunting scopes) or use holdover/holdunder for an "exact" hit?
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I have calculated and tested the MPBR method with two of my firearms and custom loads. Its legit. I would use that method with those two firearms, because I confirmed them and am confident that they will perform.

For example, with my 300 WSM. Max PBR was 325 yards. PBR Zero was 275 yards. Target vitals radius used was 3". Math Calculated using JBM Ballistics.

I set a target at my calculate MPBR, confirmed by LRF, zeroed, and then shot targets at 50, 100, 150, 200, 250, 300 and 350. And observed results.

Elevation/windage offsets from 100m zero were recorded so now when hunting with that gun, I know how much MOA to add to get to MPBR zero, and anything less than 300 meters I don't touch the dial.

I personally wouldn't have confidence in using the MPBR method for hunting game unless I had the chance to shoot targets at all of the distances between zero and beyond MPBR to see for myself that the math and calculators match real world performance.
 
I zero for an MPBR with a 6" KZ (3" radius) but still allow for hold over/under... example; if I know that I am 3" high at 175 yards and the buck is at 175 yards, I aim 3" low(ish)... like wise, if I am 3" low at 300 yards and the bull is standing at 300 yards, I aim 3" high of my intended POI... this method just gives a little more margin for error over simply using MPBR with a dead-on hold at all ranges.
 
That method is similar to what I use. I buy one box of each brand of ammo (about 8-10 brands of ammo in various grains) for each caliber rifle I shoot and find which one is overall the most accurate. Usually ends up being some brand of Hornady.

Then I sight the rifle at 25 yards so I hit a 4" skeet. I continue moving farther back to 50 yards, 100 yards, 200 yards and finally 300 yards, dialing the scope each time I move farther back. Once I am able to hit the 25 yard skeet and skeets at yardages out to 300 using the primary reticle I know I'm good to go. Then I fire out to 400 yards to see where the hole falls on my reticle. And repeat the process for farther ranges. Now I know how much holdover I need to use or which reticle on the multi-reticle scope.

You will find that as you move farther than 400 yards with most .30 calibers, the bullet will fall progressively more the farther you shoot. At 550 yards holdover becomes impracticle and wind is a serious issue. If you simply sight in at 100 yards and holdover at longer ranges it will not be the same as actually sighting in and shooting at that longer range despite what many people will tell you.

However, most shots I take on deer are around 100 yards or less. I have only needed to take longer shots when time is an issue and I cannot stalk closer to my target. At longer ranges you will sometimes have an issue with expansion and penetration if not matching the right bullet to the distance.

I usually run Hornady GMX or Federal Premium Trophy copper as they are accurate and deadly at all practical ranges from 25 yards to 400.
 
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hoytcanon said:
I zero for an MPBR with a 6" KZ (3" radius) but still allow for hold over/under... example; if I know that I am 3" high at 175 yards and the buck is at 175 yards, I aim 3" low(ish)... like wise, if I am 3" low at 300 yards and the bull is standing at 300 yards, I aim 3" high of my intended POI... this method just gives a little more margin for error over simply using MPBR with a dead-on hold at all ranges.
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That sounds like how we've been doin it for ever...starting back when a scope was just a scope.

Zero at 250 for example, account for rise and fall of the bullet and adjust accordingly.
 
I don't like my bullets rising more than 2 - 2 1/2" above line of sight. Depending on the cartridge, that gives me a 200-250 yd zero. With rifles in the .30-06/.270 class, that means I can aim at hair all the way out to 300 and maybe a bit beyond.

I've tried the 3" @ 100 zero, but it just seems high to me, and I always want to screw the scope back down.
 
hoytcanon said:
I zero for an MPBR with a 6" KZ (3" radius) but still allow for hold over/under... example; if I know that I am 3" high at 175 yards and the buck is at 175 yards, I aim 3" low(ish)... like wise, if I am 3" low at 300 yards and the bull is standing at 300 yards, I aim 3" high of my intended POI... this method just gives a little more margin for error over simply using MPBR with a dead-on hold at all ranges.
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How do you accurately estimate a 3" hold over on an animal of unknown size at an unknown range?
 
umchorn2 said:
At 550 yards holdover becomes impracticle and wind is a serious issue. If you simply sight in at 100 yards and holdover at longer ranges it will not be the same as actually sighting in and shooting at that longer range despite what many people will tell you.
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Impractical? Regardless of the range you have sighted for, not much guarantees that the animal will show up at that range, meaning some method of compensation will have to be used.

If I use 100m, no wind as my 0/0 on my scope turret, and I routinely shoot out to 500m and know that my come ups for a corrected shot is 4.75 MOA, what difference does it make if I use the turret or the reticle to come up? I'll tell you. Reticle is faster, turret is more accurate. Neither is any more or less impractical than the other. Now if I had never shot at 500m, I wouldn't have that data, and I would be guessing. But that's not the turret/reticles fault.

My reticle has 20 MOA of graduations, which gets me out to almost 1000 m of adjustment. I have shot at 1000 meters and it makes absolutely no difference if I adjust turret 20 MOA or if I use my 20 MOA elevation mark on the reticle. I am sure some scopes of inferior quality would not produce the same result as a reputable long range scope.
 
I like to zero my hunting rifles for about 250 yards and need to make field corrections on targets at ranges beyond 300 yards (~400 yards maximum). One of my preferred hunting rifles is a 416 RM loaded with 350gr bullets, trajectory as shown -

33289925526_a164746044_b.jpg
 
I use MPBR on some rifles, subtension reticles on others, yardage dials on some and MOA turrets on still others. It just sort of depends on the gun, what I'm doing with it and to a certain extent exactly when or what I was thinking at that point in my shooting career.

There's a certain amount of blurring of the lines between methods. An STW, .257 Weatherby or hot .30 Cal sighted in for 300 yards to make a drop reticle work bears a striking resemblance to a rifle sighted in for MPBR, as does your grampas 30-06 sighted for 200. A yardage dial's numbers may as well start where MPBR quits more or less. Your turret equipped long range hunting rifle may be zeroed for 100 yards, but having the first 3 MOA pre-dialled might save you bacon when the buck you weren't expecting busts out when you weren't ready.

Just because you dial your scopes doesn't mean that you can't know your drops and drifts for Kentucky elevation and windage. Just because you have a LRF doesn't mean you shouldn't be fluent in range estimation using your reticle. Just because you run a program on your phone doesn't mean you can't have a stock chart too.
 
Cameron SS said:
How do you accurately estimate a 3" hold over on an animal of unknown size at an unknown range?
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You don't... hold over or under is an extra measure to assist MPBR... you have to know your trajectory, determined at the range, and you have to know the distance to your target, and of course you have to know your quarry.
 
Have to say a 250yrd MPBR serves my hunting style fairly well. After that distance I would have trouble estimating range without a range finder and trouble hitting a game animal without a solid rest and verifying the range. I know my bullet drop at 300yrds and beyond and would do as Hoyt suggested and hold over after ranging my target. If the critter is beyond what I consider reasonable distance to make a clean kill I rather pass on the shot and wait for a better opportunity. Also here in Onterible 300yrds is a long shot for you western guys it is likely more commonplace?
 
Speaking of point blank... another range that often gets overlooked (and underestimated) is the 5 yards or less range. Every hunter will have a day where a coup de grace shot is needed, and that day is not the first time you should be finding out where you're bullet will land at 5 yards. Not such a big deal for iron sighters, but critical with a scope of any height.

That type of shot requires pin point accuracy, in the midst of an adrenaline overload. Practice by taping pennies to a target at 5 yards and estimating the hold over. This gives you a chance to practice with something you've instinctually known the size of your whole life, and in the heat of the moment can visualize that penny right where you need it to be on the animal.
 
A lot of new rangefiders will have some sort of ballistic computer in them and give "close enough" drop data out to 5-600m. i have a bushnell and a leica that does this. It can output in MOA, MILS or inches.
 
cody182005 said:
A lot of new rangefiders will have some sort of ballistic computer in them and give "close enough" drop data out to 5-600m. i have a bushnell and a leica that does this. It can output in MOA, MILS or inches.
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When you say close enough, have you ever tried to validate the data? I have always wondered how close some of those things track?

I have seen some reports of those different calculators tracking pretty closely, but that depends on how closely your firearm matches the set up used for the calculator.

I have seen some set up for Mil Spec 5.56 AR's with 16" barrels and STANAG ammo, and if you are shooting a 16" barrel with STANAG 5.56 ammo than it tracks pretty close.

But if you are using a .223 varmint gun with 26" barrel with hot and heavy handloads, then it doesn't track very well at all.
 
I did most of my hunting before the advent of turrets and rangefinders, hence my love for velocity.........Given the hardships of the old days, the only way to make long range hunting easier was to shoot a faster flatter rifle, which was what led to my development of the 30-404 Imp. Anyway my sheep hunting buddy and I had a very simple set of protocols we used when mountain hunting. We both used rifles shooting high BC bullets at about 31-3200 fps. sighted dead on at 300 mtrs. giving a MPBR of about 375 mtrs. So we would estimate the distance to ram in only 2 ways.........either it ain't "THAT" far and hold dead on or it's "WAY OUT THERE" and then we would hold top of shoulder and the other would spot with the spotting scope. This method proved to be very effective, for those times when stalking closer just wasn't possible. Trying to guess a distance is almost impossible even for the best hunters, atmospheric and geographical conditions mess with your vision and perception constantly......mist, dust, haze, crystal clear, overcast, cross canyon, uphill, downhill..........so we found the best we could gauge was "likely less than 400 mtrs", or "almost certainly farther than 400 mtrs"...........it worked well for us. I guess you could say we were using the MPBR system to it's extreme...........
 
c-fbmi said:
I did most of my hunting before the advent of turrets and rangefinders, hence my love for velocity.........Given the hardships of the old days, the only way to make long range hunting easier was to shoot a faster flatter rifle, which was what led to my development of the 30-404 Imp. Anyway my sheep hunting buddy and I had a very simple set of protocols we used when mountain hunting. We both used rifles shooting high BC bullets at about 31-3200 fps. sighted dead on at 300 mtrs. giving a MPBR of about 375 mtrs. So we would estimate the distance to ram in only 2 ways.........either it ain't "THAT" far and hold dead on or it's "WAY OUT THERE" and then we would hold top of shoulder and the other would spot with the spotting scope. This method proved to be very effective, for those times when stalking closer just wasn't possible. Trying to guess a distance is almost impossible even for the best hunters, atmospheric and geographical conditions mess with your vision and perception constantly......mist, dust, haze, crystal clear, overcast, cross canyon, uphill, downhill..........so we found the best we could gauge was "likely less than 400 mtrs", or "almost certainly farther than 400 mtrs"...........it worked well for us. I guess you could say we were using the MPBR system to it's extreme...........
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What does a 30-404 Imp look like? I made some thermo-nuclear hot loads for my 300 wsm. 110 Gr Barnes TTSX clocked in at about 3850 FPS. BC is only .300 though. Flat enough?
Alternatively I have clocked a 180 Gr Nosler BT with BC of .507 at 3200, which seems to actually be a bit flatter than the TTSX.
 
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