Well, I have to thank this thread for motivating me to grab one of the Russian SKSs we're up to our ears in at the moment... I never thought I'd have an interest in owning one again, but given their ubiquity during the Vietnam war and my interest in said conflict, it seemed crazy not to get one while they're widely available. That, and I'm sitting on some Norc 7.62x51 that I no longer have use for, so it should make for an easy trade hopefully.
How come we never see any real SUT/LI training with SKS's ?
- Thread starter DAJA
- Start date
In Canada, I could see this sort of firearms combat training being potentially illegal...
If there were schools offering this type of training in Canada, this might apply...not sure, but sounds like it to me...
If there were schools offering this type of training in Canada, this might apply...not sure, but sounds like it to me...
Unlawful Drilling
70. (1) The Governor in Council may, by proclamation, make orders
(a) to prohibit assemblies, without lawful authority, of persons for the purpose
(i) of training or drilling themselves,
(ii) of being trained or drilled to the use of arms, or
(iii) of practising military exercises; or
(b) to prohibit persons when assembled for any purpose from training or drilling themselves or from being trained or drilled.
Marginal note:General or special order
(2) An order that is made under subsection (1) may be general or may be made applicable to particular places, districts or assemblies to be specified in the order.
Marginal noteunishment
(3) Every one who contravenes an order made under this section is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years.
how so? it says "70. (1) The Governor in Council may, by proclamation, make orders" not that they DID
Sure, could be made so, but isn't... Lots of things are potentially something. I mean, Parliament could also make a bunch of actions illegal by invoking the War Measures Act, but they haven't.
Never really thought about it that way, but 70 (1) (a) (2) could be just as readily interpreted to include the Canada Firearms Safety Course too - that's being trained in the use of arms also.
Never really thought about it that way, but 70 (1) (a) (2) could be just as readily interpreted to include the Canada Firearms Safety Course too - that's being trained in the use of arms also.
Thanks for the clarifications, and I don't mind being corrected on my own bad info.
If nothing else, the SKS is a fun little rifle. Decently accurate, for what it is, and cheap to run with surplus ammo, and even some of the commercial options.
For me, overall, all the tactical talk is just academic, mental spit-balling. Part of the reason why I don't mind being wrong - I don't expect my life to ever depend on my ability with arms, except maybe (and even this is a remote chance) having to keep an over-interested bear from swatting me away from my trout line. And an SKS isn't my first choice for that.
Great fun at the range, though.
They sure are! And you're right, that's all that really matters. Been a while since I've owned one, I kind of subscribed to the "only accurate rifles are interesting" notion too rigidly I think. Accurate enough is accurate enough.
Even for soldiers in combat, the odds of individual ability with arms making the difference between life and death are very slim. Most casualties are produced by artillery and MG fire; shooting back with a rifle won't really help you there. Indeed, the effect you have to achieve during the approach and assault is merely suppression, not destruction. You don't even really have to hit the enemy, just keep them from effectively returning fire on you, and that's primarily achieved by LMG and GPMG fire. Rifles are basically for self defence.
Not to say soldiers shouldn't strive to be accurate shooters, rather that there are many many more significant factors conspiring against you, and sometimes individual marksmanship may appear to give one more control over one's fate than it really does.
And I love being shown where I'm wrong when one's life DOES depend on it... Imagine the consequences of having it wrong, and not knowing you were wrong!
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Travis Bickle
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Upper Lower Middle Alberta
"Up and running" to what?
The SHTF TEOTWAWKI Bear Defense Scenario!?!?
The real answer to your question though is that noone takes the SKS seriously enough to shoot it while wearing MultiCam with Oakleys on while wearing their best "I'm a hard ass" face....
The SHTF TEOTWAWKI Bear Defense Scenario!?!?
The real answer to your question though is that noone takes the SKS seriously enough to shoot it while wearing MultiCam with Oakleys on while wearing their best "I'm a hard ass" face....
Mean teaching fundamentals? Skills will only get there after 10000s time doing that your able to do it without thinking.
If you can afford the class and only want to bring a SKS for SHTF then you can save the money and just go thru drills and drills ..Skills like muscle memory, I can shoot the same no matter what gun is in my hand.
Only way is doing it over and over..
I wonder how many people in a 3rd world country would agree? I mean point and shoot. Pretty simple action, 10 min to show you how to reload the rifle. USA got handed in Vietnam and Iraq from civilians with "outdated" rifles.
Point and shoot is not what he or I am talking about.
the guy is talking about section attacks and light infantry assaults training. you don't see that in 3rd world countries do you. And I'm not speaking about the SKS, I'm speaking to the training.
BeaverMeat
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nanaimo, B.C.
"Light Assault" training for...
Infantry training is more than rifles. Navigation is vital. Radios are vital. You don't see 300lb guys with shaved heads, goatees and camo oakleys on YouTube showing you what commo they "run" in their tactical training videos. Skill at Arms is just one part of the puzzle.
If groups of people started training for "light assault" don't you think they'd make this proclamation in about two seconds?
I don't know, I'm just suggesting possible answers to the original question.
*Ahem*...
Well, we were wearing winter camouflage... but yeah, the SKS was on weapons fam.
-S.
We shoot this about 8 times a year at Camp Borden. I see you are in Toronto. You should come out and shoot with us. bring whatever rifle you want to use. You need a pistol, too.
You have a good eye. The rifle has a rear peep, so the sight base was a handy place to put the sling. I originally had it at the front loop, put the sling was too short to allow the rifle to be slung properly. In transition to pistol, we have to drop the rifle, and it has to hang out of the way. The cross bolt keeps everything solid so the rear sight does not wobble.
The PLAF (main force VC) and PAVN (NVA) were every bit the full time professional army the Americans were. Civilians? Not even close. The PLAF were very highly motivated - moreso than the Americans - well trained, well led, highly capable tacticians. Some of the things they did were superior to what the US did; I'm thinking of self criticism sessions, which today we know as after action reviews. Only a small portion of the communist forces could really be called "civilians"; the regional force and popular force VC. To say they were the ones primarily fighting the war is like saying the South Vietnamese RFPF led the fight against the communists.
All that said, and for all that organization, equipment, support and training, the PLAF were effectively wiped out as a fighting force during the Tet offensive. It was an absolutely devastating military defeat, and they never really reconstituted themselves. That's the key lesson from Tet - it was a tremendous psychological victory, and an utter military defeat. Even the most capable insurgent force on the planet was simply no match for the coordinated firepower the US could bring to bear, and the Tet offensive for all it's impressiveness violated several key principles of warfare that cost the communists dearly.
This is an excellent introduction to how the PAVN and PLAF conducted the war - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NLF_and_PAVN_battle_tactics
I don't know that I've heard the Iraq war be characterized as a defeat for the US before. They did manage to mop the floor with the Iraqi Army, and defeated the insurgency as well.
The lesson I draw from Vietnam and the Afghanistans are that even the best insurgent forces on the planet are no match militarily for modern, professional armies, but that alone isn't really relevant to defeating an insurgency. The US strategy in Vietnam was to attrit the communists until they gave up. The communist strategy was to keep fighting regardless of casualties until the Americans left. With the benefit of hindsight, we know which one will ultimately prevail.
Perfectly said. Skill at arms is one small (very small) part of what makes armies effective. Command, control, communication and coordination are far far more important, and what make armies armies and not a collection of fighters. An army comprised solely of Jerry Miculek clones, acting individually, would have their clocks cleaned by a force of Mr Magoos acting in a coordinated, controlled manner.
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Many thanks for the invite sir. I used to shoot at ORA matches frequently years ago when I was my unit's musketry officer; to be honest, after some years of shooting on DND ranges, these days I relish the freedom of shooting sans commands on austere "field firing ranges." I'm sure the pendulum will swing back one day. I divested myself of my restricted collection some years back too... but of course, any excuse... I'm thinking of hauling myself out to Winona for the 17th though.
