How come we never see any real SUT/LI training with SKS's ?

[grelmar]

They sure are! And you're right, that's all that really matters. Been a while since I've owned one, I kind of subscribed to the "only accurate rifles are interesting" notion too rigidly I think. Accurate enough is accurate enough.

Even for soldiers in combat, the odds of individual ability with arms making the difference between life and death are very slim. Most casualties are produced by artillery and MG fire; shooting back with a rifle won't really help you there. Indeed, the effect you have to achieve during the approach and assault is merely suppression, not destruction. You don't even really have to hit the enemy, just keep them from effectively returning fire on you, and that's primarily achieved by LMG and GPMG fire. Rifles are basically for self defence.
Not to say soldiers shouldn't strive to be accurate shooters, rather that there are many many more significant factors conspiring against you, and sometimes individual marksmanship may appear to give one more control over one's fate than it really does.

And I love being shown where I'm wrong when one's life DOES depend on it... Imagine the consequences of having it wrong, and not knowing you were wrong!

Well said. Mistakes are for practice - that's the time to make them, when you get a chance to learn from them.

I wonder how many people in a 3rd world country would agree? I mean point and shoot. Pretty simple action, 10 min to show you how to reload the rifle. USA got handed in Vietnam and Iraq from civilians with "outdated" rifles.

If you look at the casualty ratios, the victories in all the mentioned cases came at a tremendous cost (and as flashman pointed out, citing Iraw as a victory for the insurgency is quite dubious).

In Vietnam, a huge percentage of the Vietnamese forces were professional soldiers in organized units (I don't know the exact ratio, so won't even hazard a guess here). And even the irregulars were far more organized - and trained - than most people realize. And still the US military frequently inflicted casualty ratios on the order of 10 to 1 or higher.

In Afghanistan, the insurgent forces also went through more than just rudimentary training. One of the key reasons the US went into Afghanistan in the first place was because of the large number of Al Qaeda training facilities that the country was hosting.

You also can't discount the "veteran effect". In both cases, the enemy forces didn't have a tour of duty and then rotate home. The signed up, and fought until they died (or were otherwise permanently incapacitated), or the US left. This meant that over time, the pool of senior fighters just kept growing. These were hardened men, with hard won practical knowledge. In Vietnam, the insurgency had been going on for nearly a decade by the time the US arrived, and there was a large pool of senior insurgents to draw from right from the get go. In Afghanistan, the US were up against men who had been insurgents since the late 70s when Russia invaded, and then in various internal conflicts.

The "untrained, armed insurgent" is largely a myth based on western cultural biases and poorly researched newsmen.

 

[flashman]

In Vietnam, the insurgency had been going on for nearly a decade by the time the US arrived, and there was a large pool of senior insurgents to draw from right from the get go.

Absolutely. The Viet Minh veterans from the first Indochina war formed the core of the PLAF at the start of the second Indochina war. You're talking about guys who already had a proven track record of defeating a western power, and one that had decades of experience in Vietnam to boot.

In Afghanistan, the US were up against men who had been insurgents since the late 70s when Russia invaded, and then in various internal conflicts.

Believe it or not, the Russian war in Afghanistan was basically outside of living memory by the mid 2000s. The Russians left in 1989. Afghan life expectancy is 60 years. Anyone who fought the Russians would have been at least in their 40s, or dead of old age by the time of the Taliban insurgency. I never came across anyone there on either side fighting then who had actually fought the Russians. In fact, my head terp, a very well educated and worldly man (by Afghan standards) was in his early 20s, and looked at me funny when I mentioned the Russian invasion one day. Basically he said something along the lines of "oh yeah, I remember hearing about that."

The "untrained, armed insurgent" is largely a myth based on western cultural biases and poorly researched newsmen.

Yup. The Taliban circa 2006 got absolutely slaughtered by us, but untrained? No way. We spent six months on pre deployment training learning to fight a hidden guerilla force, and what did we run into within weeks of arrival in theatre? A battalion sized textbook Soviet style defensive position, complete with communication trenches, dug in CPs, mutually supporting positions, etc etc. You don't just pick up the ability to plan and site something like that by accident.

 

[grelmar]

Believe it or not, the Russian war in Afghanistan was basically outside of living memory by the mid 2000s. The Russians left in 1989. Afghan life expectancy is 60 years. Anyone who fought the Russians would have been at least in their 40s, or dead of old age by the time of the Taliban insurgency. I never came across anyone there on either side fighting then who had actually fought the Russians. In fact, my head terp, a very well educated and worldly man (by Afghan standards) was in his early 20s, and looked at me funny when I mentioned the Russian invasion one day. Basically he said something along the lines of "oh yeah, I remember hearing about that."

This actually surprises me, somewhat. Although I guess it shouldn't, knowing the low life expectancy of the region. Still, I would suspect that there would be at least some "old men" in the leadership ranks.

Yup. The Taliban circa 2006 got absolutely slaughtered by us, but untrained? No way. We spent six months on pre deployment training learning to fight a hidden guerilla force, and what did we run into within weeks of arrival in theatre? A battalion sized textbook Soviet style defensive position, complete with communication trenches, dug in CPs, mutually supporting positions, etc etc. You don't just pick up the ability to plan and site something like that by accident.

This makes me wonder that there wasn't at least some residual fighters left over from the Soviet invasion.

Then again, there are lots of ways of collecting the needed information and skills to start working on this kind of planning. There are plenty of "advisers" for hire floating around the world. I would assume that after the collapse of the Soviet Union, a fair number of former Soviet soldiers went looking for hard cash pay, instead of the promissory notes they were getting from their own government.

 

[flashman]

This actually surprises me, somewhat. Although I guess it shouldn't, knowing the low life expectancy of the region. Still, I would suspect that there would be at least some "old men" in the leadership ranks.

Very few, and as I said I never came across any fighting now that fought the Soviets. Certainly there were guys in the senior leadership ranks that had that experience, but not in combat leadership roles. By way of example, Mullah Dadullah, the head Taliban military commander, was only 23 when the Soviets pulled out. So the very most senior guy the Talibs had was a young man at the end of the Soviet war, and certainly in no position of seniority then.

This makes me wonder that there wasn't at least some residual fighters left over from the Soviet invasion.

Then again, there are lots of ways of collecting the needed information and skills to start working on this kind of planning. There are plenty of "advisers" for hire floating around the world. I would assume that after the collapse of the Soviet Union, a fair number of former Soviet soldiers went looking for hard cash pay, instead of the promissory notes they were getting from their own government.

Who needs to shell out cash for advisors when you have ISI and the Pakistani military providing support and training for free?