So I was wondering how common are Martini rifles in .303 and what would be a good price for a shooter grade? I belive the model name is Martini-Enfield Mk I but I cant seem to find any. I have been very very interested in the Martini rifles and I would like to pick one up in a cailiber I alreadly load for insteed of having to go through the expensive process of finding the rare brass and loading black powder. Any imput would be extremly helpful thanks. -Miller854
How common are Martini-Enfields?
- Thread starter Miller854
- Start date
I'm far from a martini expert but a martini is on my list. Martini's are pretty common in canada but the ones in .303 aren't super rare but they also aren't super common either. As for prices they seem to be all over the map.
If it was me I'd be looking for a martini Enfield and not a martini metford as the latter have shallow metford rifling which was not designed to handle smokeless loads. Both are chambered in .303 but I perfer Enfield rifling in that caliber.
If it was me I'd be looking for a martini Enfield and not a martini metford as the latter have shallow metford rifling which was not designed to handle smokeless loads. Both are chambered in .303 but I perfer Enfield rifling in that caliber.
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
with the .303 martinis you have to know what your looking at plenty of Khyber pass fakes that are not safe to shoot even some in .577-450 floating about
best bet go to british militaria forum and read up and ask lots of questions. your best bet look for a mk IV in .577-450 and spend some money on brass and a mold because a .468".-.470 bullet is needed for the british martinis.
also i'll tell you the lee dies work the brass way to much they size them down for a .457 bullet and only full length size and are made for the smallest of the martini chambers(something like 30 variations) .480 ruger dies can be used to neck size and seat the bullet(I piece of pipe cut to the bottom of the neck helps not push the case too far on the .480 dies)
the BP in these case is a corse one 1f goex is used a lot 85gr measured with a BP measure some 100% cotton cotton balls to take up the rest of the room some felt wads on top of that(making sure they don't go below the neck) then seat the bullet
if I could find a steady supply of 20/1 lead/tin id sell the bullets needed
best bet go to british militaria forum and read up and ask lots of questions. your best bet look for a mk IV in .577-450 and spend some money on brass and a mold because a .468".-.470 bullet is needed for the british martinis.
also i'll tell you the lee dies work the brass way to much they size them down for a .457 bullet and only full length size and are made for the smallest of the martini chambers(something like 30 variations) .480 ruger dies can be used to neck size and seat the bullet(I piece of pipe cut to the bottom of the neck helps not push the case too far on the .480 dies)
the BP in these case is a corse one 1f goex is used a lot 85gr measured with a BP measure some 100% cotton cotton balls to take up the rest of the room some felt wads on top of that(making sure they don't go below the neck) then seat the bullet
if I could find a steady supply of 20/1 lead/tin id sell the bullets needed
This I why I haven't bought a .303 chambered martini enfield. I've done my research and asked questions but I feel I'm not sure that I can spot a fake or unsafe to shoot version from a good one.
I really want one in .303 cause that's my caliber of choice and the one I reload most so it only makes sense for me. But that being said I may just end up getting a martini Henry after all. I'm waiting til I get my snider going to decide wether black powder is my cup of tea.
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
remember the .303 martinis like the 215gr bullets loaded to that military cartridge velocity or around there idk if the sights are adjustable on them. anything british made that passes headspace should be safe but don't hot rod the rounds pressure wise the .303 guns are just early pattern .577-450 receivers with a .303 barrel.
Khyber pass fakes are always unsafe id deactivate them. backwards or upside down letters or numbers are a good indicator also wrong dates is a good one also wood fit and where the back of the breech block sits
NorthCoastBigBore
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Northwest BC (Rural) 103-I-##
Have you checked the EE? There is one there for what to me seems like a decent price:
h ttp://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?917709-Citadel-303-Martini-amp-Swede-Rolling-Block-Sporter-Pics-added
h ttp://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?917709-Citadel-303-Martini-amp-Swede-Rolling-Block-Sporter-Pics-added
Thanks for the info. I pretty much only feed my .303's cast rounds and am getting great accuracy and zero wear on to the rifling. I'm thinking a martini Enfield with a good bore would shoot well with some cast rounds shot at a nice slow pace.
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
problem is the sights are not movable so you have to use Kentucky windage it was regulated for the 215gr service load and bullet shape. for my martini henry since the rear sight was bent I made a mount for a dovetail sight that pins and screws in place where the normal one would go this makes a adjustable rear sight I mite make a mount that slides on the barrel and raparound the front sight to hold a new front sight
a shootable martini enfield is a pretty rare bird here, 19 out of the 20 I've seen have had the worst barrels I have ever seen on a centerfire smokeless rifle, and I bought the 20th which was pristine for 400 bucks. If you can find one, grab it and it will digest factory loads with ease. The most common configuration I see the enfield sold in is as a parts gun, due to the barrel being shot, they go for around a couple hundred bucks tops.
Dont listen to the garbage that some people spew that its a black powder only rifle, they have never seen these guns. The rifles are proofed to the same pressures as the lee enfields.
Dont listen to the garbage that some people spew that its a black powder only rifle, they have never seen these guns. The rifles are proofed to the same pressures as the lee enfields.
All Service .303" barrels were rifled 1 turn in 10 inches.
The early ammunition used the 215-grain bullet, but the barrels were left alone when the 174 came along in 1910. Generally, 1 in 10 works fine right down to and including the 150. If you are terribly concerned about accuracy, try the Hornady 174 Round-nose and seat it 'WAY out.
***********************************
YES, some of the Khyber Pass guns do have the most INTERESTING markings!
Dear Sants;
Thank you for the nice rifle you left under my tree this year. I am really going to enjoy this one a lot.
By the way, Santa, can you tell me what this means? It is on the Martini you left for me.
V.R. with a Crown
WAUZER EINFELD
1921
Thank you, Santa.
Your friend,
Billy
The early ammunition used the 215-grain bullet, but the barrels were left alone when the 174 came along in 1910. Generally, 1 in 10 works fine right down to and including the 150. If you are terribly concerned about accuracy, try the Hornady 174 Round-nose and seat it 'WAY out.
***********************************
YES, some of the Khyber Pass guns do have the most INTERESTING markings!
Dear Sants;
Thank you for the nice rifle you left under my tree this year. I am really going to enjoy this one a lot.
By the way, Santa, can you tell me what this means? It is on the Martini you left for me.
V.R. with a Crown
WAUZER EINFELD
1921
Thank you, Santa.
Your friend,
Billy
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
the martini metford was the only one used with BP loads. the rest were smokeless.
the rifling was 1 in 10 but the sights are still regulated for the 215gr service loads
It is a bit easier to change the sights than it is to swap barrels.
BTW, the .303 was only manufactured for the Service as a Black-powder round for about 4 years.
Lee-Metford rifle and .303 ammo were adopted in December of 1888, Cordite ammunition in 1892.
Those were the very early years of Smokeless Powder and the ammunition developments came hot and heavy and VERY frequently: 2 Marks of Black and 6 of Cordite .303 in just 12 years. The Cordite Mark VII Ball was issued in 1910 and is still being made: something of a record for military ammo, one would think.
BTW, they ALL used flat-based bullets.
BTW, the .303 was only manufactured for the Service as a Black-powder round for about 4 years.
Lee-Metford rifle and .303 ammo were adopted in December of 1888, Cordite ammunition in 1892.
Those were the very early years of Smokeless Powder and the ammunition developments came hot and heavy and VERY frequently: 2 Marks of Black and 6 of Cordite .303 in just 12 years. The Cordite Mark VII Ball was issued in 1910 and is still being made: something of a record for military ammo, one would think.
BTW, they ALL used flat-based bullets.
On my 1889 dated martini the take off barrel is 14 tpi, 1 inch diameter by .790 long. I'm not sure if it is whitworth or 60 degree threads. The light was poor when I checked with my pincess auto thread gage.
My gun was found in a coworkers potatoe bin when he bought his house. It was in pretty rough shape, having been bubba'd into a short barrelled "sporter".
My gun was found in a coworkers potatoe bin when he bought his house. It was in pretty rough shape, having been bubba'd into a short barrelled "sporter".
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
the brits used thread pattern on the snider,martini,lee metford and lee enfield rifles
Any large Martini action I have will take the standard thread used on a No1 or No4 Lee Enfield. Why change something that works well.
As far as Khyber Pass Martinis go, good luck in finding one. I've been looking long and hard for one for over 40 years.
A few years ago, I thought I had found one. Turns out it was made in the Royal Afghan Armories. No, I don't remember the name of it. When I talked to the lady I bought it from, it turned out her son had it shipped home from Afganistan, where he picked it up in a bazaar, along with a scabbardless bayonet. To bad, but still lots of history behind the rifle and it's in 90% condition inside and out.
OP, the big issue with these rifles is condition. Many of the rifles we come across today are cobbled together from parts bins. I can remember in the late sixties when these rifles first came in. I helped clean up thousands of them. Most went across the border, into the US. Surprisingly though the best ones stayed here in Canada. They were in 577/450, 303 with both Enfield rifling and Metford style rifling. They also come with different style bayonet lugs and some, have the slip over the barrel type bayos. Lots of differences as smellie mentioned.
The 577/450 rifles had the worst bores overall. We took close to a thousand of those and welded them together in a triangular jig. Took out one of the falling blocks, threaded the internal muzzle and attached a lamp fixture. The bores in those rifles were rusty holes, devoid of rifling, but still recognisable as rifles. The parts on them alone would be very desireable now. Back then, we got $30 per lamp and still made good money.
The 303 rifles, were generally in better condition. Many had the finish worn off completely and came either shiney, brown patina all over or well blued. Many of them had the sides of the barrels worn paper thin beside the last 6 inches, to the muzzle. We were told this was from being taken in and out of scabbards. When the rifles were in scabbards, especially in the middle east, sand would get into the bottom of the scabbards and wear them down. Needless to say, when they were worn in such a manner, if the bores were good, many got docked back to where the barrels were round and recrowned. The stocks, suffered all kinds of abuses.
These actions, if they are tight are very strong. They handle surplus or commercial ammo with ease.
I've seen them converted to 308Win and one in 257 Rob, by a very crafty fellow in Penticton BC. He split the extractor he made up and installed springs and a wedge so that the extractor would separate when it came to the full extraction position, releasing the case. This also worked well for loading. To my knowledge, he used full pressure loads in both of those rifles. He got the idea from a fellow in the UK, so it isn't that unusual.
Like a fool, I bought the 257 Rob from his estate, used it for a couple of years, after mounting a scope and leather cheek pad, then tired of it and sold it. That is one of my regrets. Fantastic rifle to shoot, comfortable and accurate.
I've also seen them converted to 30/40 Krag and 7.62x54R.
The 30/40 Krag was done because the rifles could be picked up for less than $20 and when 303Brit surplus ammo wasn't available, there was always lots of 30/40 Krag brass to fall back on. The chamber, because of the similar rim would accept both cartridges and shoot them well.
I still have one chambered in 30/40 Krag. I bought it that way for the action but it shoots so well, I've stripped it for refinishing and it's sitting in Limbo. This winter will show some progress though.
Like mentioned, look for one with a decent bore, that locks up tight. If it's loose and sloppy, they will often pop open after being fired, on their own. Not dangerous but disconcerting to say the least.
They will be found with Australian, British, Nepalese, Turkish, Arabic and other African nations markings. Probably many others as well. They were popular because they were strong and efficient. When an operator was trained properly in their use, they could get of five rounds as fast as most troops with bolt action rifles. Much faster than the single shot bolt action rifles that were fielded in the day and just as fast as a Mauser.
The No1 and later No4 rifles had the edge on them though. The big advantage the bolt action repeaters had on them, was the ability to be loaded with chargers. I did see a special leather bandolier made up by hand that had been sewn with the ability to extract four cartridges between the fingers and thumb of one hand. It worked well and with such a rig, fast, sustained fire could be kept up until the ammo ran out.
There is a site in the US that has them for sale. IMA. They aren't cheap though and are of Nepalese and UK production.
I like Martinis. The most powerful cartridge I have one rebarreled to is the 7x65R. Powerful and accurate.
As far as Khyber Pass Martinis go, good luck in finding one. I've been looking long and hard for one for over 40 years.
A few years ago, I thought I had found one. Turns out it was made in the Royal Afghan Armories. No, I don't remember the name of it. When I talked to the lady I bought it from, it turned out her son had it shipped home from Afganistan, where he picked it up in a bazaar, along with a scabbardless bayonet. To bad, but still lots of history behind the rifle and it's in 90% condition inside and out.
OP, the big issue with these rifles is condition. Many of the rifles we come across today are cobbled together from parts bins. I can remember in the late sixties when these rifles first came in. I helped clean up thousands of them. Most went across the border, into the US. Surprisingly though the best ones stayed here in Canada. They were in 577/450, 303 with both Enfield rifling and Metford style rifling. They also come with different style bayonet lugs and some, have the slip over the barrel type bayos. Lots of differences as smellie mentioned.
The 577/450 rifles had the worst bores overall. We took close to a thousand of those and welded them together in a triangular jig. Took out one of the falling blocks, threaded the internal muzzle and attached a lamp fixture. The bores in those rifles were rusty holes, devoid of rifling, but still recognisable as rifles. The parts on them alone would be very desireable now. Back then, we got $30 per lamp and still made good money.
The 303 rifles, were generally in better condition. Many had the finish worn off completely and came either shiney, brown patina all over or well blued. Many of them had the sides of the barrels worn paper thin beside the last 6 inches, to the muzzle. We were told this was from being taken in and out of scabbards. When the rifles were in scabbards, especially in the middle east, sand would get into the bottom of the scabbards and wear them down. Needless to say, when they were worn in such a manner, if the bores were good, many got docked back to where the barrels were round and recrowned. The stocks, suffered all kinds of abuses.
These actions, if they are tight are very strong. They handle surplus or commercial ammo with ease.
I've seen them converted to 308Win and one in 257 Rob, by a very crafty fellow in Penticton BC. He split the extractor he made up and installed springs and a wedge so that the extractor would separate when it came to the full extraction position, releasing the case. This also worked well for loading. To my knowledge, he used full pressure loads in both of those rifles. He got the idea from a fellow in the UK, so it isn't that unusual.
Like a fool, I bought the 257 Rob from his estate, used it for a couple of years, after mounting a scope and leather cheek pad, then tired of it and sold it. That is one of my regrets. Fantastic rifle to shoot, comfortable and accurate.
I've also seen them converted to 30/40 Krag and 7.62x54R.
The 30/40 Krag was done because the rifles could be picked up for less than $20 and when 303Brit surplus ammo wasn't available, there was always lots of 30/40 Krag brass to fall back on. The chamber, because of the similar rim would accept both cartridges and shoot them well.
I still have one chambered in 30/40 Krag. I bought it that way for the action but it shoots so well, I've stripped it for refinishing and it's sitting in Limbo. This winter will show some progress though.
Like mentioned, look for one with a decent bore, that locks up tight. If it's loose and sloppy, they will often pop open after being fired, on their own. Not dangerous but disconcerting to say the least.
They will be found with Australian, British, Nepalese, Turkish, Arabic and other African nations markings. Probably many others as well. They were popular because they were strong and efficient. When an operator was trained properly in their use, they could get of five rounds as fast as most troops with bolt action rifles. Much faster than the single shot bolt action rifles that were fielded in the day and just as fast as a Mauser.
The No1 and later No4 rifles had the edge on them though. The big advantage the bolt action repeaters had on them, was the ability to be loaded with chargers. I did see a special leather bandolier made up by hand that had been sewn with the ability to extract four cartridges between the fingers and thumb of one hand. It worked well and with such a rig, fast, sustained fire could be kept up until the ammo ran out.
There is a site in the US that has them for sale. IMA. They aren't cheap though and are of Nepalese and UK production.
I like Martinis. The most powerful cartridge I have one rebarreled to is the 7x65R. Powerful and accurate.
