How did the old timers reload 50 140 sharps?

B

BDL931

New member
EE Expired
Rating - 100%
8   0   0
Location
Oromocto,N.B.
Hey guys here's the situation...
I recently decided to try my hand at BPCR as it really intrests me, and after a long search I finally got my fathers sharps back.
It's a Shiloh Sharps made in NY chambered in 50 140. Not having a reloading press, I got to thinking and read an artical about the cartridge that mentioned that the hunters would reload cartriges at night for the next days hunt. Obviously, they didn't have a press and dies with them, so how did they do it?
I want to reload this cartridge completely by hand if possible. Any info would be a big help.
 
Last edited:
IIRC according to Elmer Keith who knew some of the hunters personally they seated the bullets by hand, thumb pressure, in the fired cases. They preferred the straight cases since the BN cases would stretch at the shoulder and require sizing whereas the straight cases could be used indefinitely.
 
I looked at the Lyman 310 tools, but they don't have any in 50 140. Could you use just your hands to seat the bullet, and not bother with a crimp?
 
I haven't checked my Frank Sellers Sharps reference book, but I believe that tong tools were not available in all the Sharps proprietary cartridges. The 50-140, 45-120 and others came out after the decimation of the buffalo.
I've read in various sources that hide hunters bought bulk bullets (mostly paper patched as opposed to naked) as no one felt like sitting around a fire at night casting, sizing, lubing, etc.
Sellers and other books talk about "scraping" out powder residue, replacing primers, measuring powder and seating bullets by hand. Time was worth money and time spent reloading was not dropping buffs.
I've seen a 50-110 that went through several owners and a few 45-110/120's s well. The owners quickly found out they were not fun guns to shoot for more than a few rounds.
Detached retinas, sore shoulders and all that. The rifles used by the hide hunters were of more modest potential.
 
I've shot a 45-100 one time and that was enough for me. I cannot fathom setting off a 45-140.

I suspect that you won't like it either. I'd suggest a lighter load along the lines of 70 to 80 gns of black powder with a topping of filler such as cream of wheat such that seating the bullet ensures a moderate 3/16 inch of compression. On any less a casing 3/16 would be considered as heavy compression of the charge. But on something the length of a 45-140 the thing must look like a scaled down submarine torpedo. So 3/16 for something that long would be the same as a "moderate" 1/8 inch of compression on a .45-70. Anyway your shoulder will thank you for using a reduced power round of this sort.

I sure hope you have a supply of brass. 45-140 is not a common one. In fact I can't even find much about it on Google. You sure it isn't .50-140 Sharps?

For decapping you'll want a suitable size pin punch and a spot with a hole in it to allow punching out the old primer. I can't think of a good way to seat the new primer other than a Lee hand primer. You'll want a black powder adjustable measure for measuring out the powder and any fillers. So buy two so you can leave them set for powder and filler.

You say you don't want to size the brass. Hopefully that works out for you and it springs back enough that it holds the bullets from simply falling out.
 
Sharps '63 said:
I haven't checked my Frank Sellers Sharps reference book, but I believe that tong tools were not available in all the Sharps proprietary cartridges. I've seen a 50-110 that went through several owners and a few 45-110/120's s well. The owners quickly found out they were not fun guns to shoot for more than a few rounds.
Detached retinas, sore shoulders and all that. The rifles used by the hide hunters were of more modest potential.
Click to expand...

I've read that .50-70 was far and away more prevalent on the buffalo hunts. Even .45-70, ubiquitous as it is today, wasn't yet in popular use with the general public.
 
oneadam12 said:
I've read that .50-70 was far and away more prevalent on the buffalo hunts. Even .45-70, ubiquitous as it is today, wasn't yet in popular use with the general public.
Click to expand...

I don't believe the 50-140 was available until after most of the buffalo were gone. I think they were mostly shot with a variety of 44 and 45 caliber rifles plus probably the 50-70. More to the point, I owned a Farmingdale Sharps in 45-120 for two or three years. You don't need to resize the cases if you are using a straight case and I suspect most the lengthening you get with bottle neck cases may come from resizing them. I would strongly suggest reading Paul Mathews book "the Paper Jacket"

You would be well advised to charge the case using a drop tube. I would put a card wad on top of the powder and just hand seat the bullets. With the 50-140, I would be tempted to load between 70 - 90 grains of 2F and top that with enough cornmeal to give you the correct loaded length. You want the bullet to almost touch the rifling. If your rifling is shallow, I would recommend paper patching. My gun had very shallow rifling (around .002") and would only shoot paper patches accurately. I have used grease cookies between the card wad and the bullet and am of mixed opinions as to their merit. The gun that I had was accurate but just too much recoil for my taste. Final thought; if you are using lubricated lead bullets, use a soft lube such as 1/2 animal grease (lard) and 1/2 bees wax. I think that Paul Mathews lube and SPG lube are more or less that sort of mixture. Also use soft bullets of about 95% lead and 5% alloying metal

cheers mooncoon
 
Venturino's book "Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West" is an excellent reference for both Buffalo hunters and Buffalo guns. Some books cover hunters better and some key on the guns but this one has both in one package.

The most prolific used buff guns launched a smattering of .40 but mostly .44 to 50 cal slugs and fired 70 to90 grs of black with the odd 100 gr charge used. The odd Buff may have succumbed to a 120 or 140 but at would have been a somewhat lonesome straggler well after the big hunts were long done.

Actually the 45-70 did see a considerable amount of use in the Buffalo fields. Gen. Sheridan saw to it that the same methods he used to decimate the south in the civil war was followed in the Indian wars namely starving the enemy. He saw to it that anybody that wanted to kill Buffalo to keep them from the Indians had a supply of .45 govt. ammo... .45 govt. = 45-70. Both Sharps & "commercial sales" Rolling Blocks were chambered for the 45-70 in the Buffalo era.

EDITED: Sorry Moon some of my post mirrors yours, I was typing the same time you were.
 
Last edited:
I have/had a .50-140 Sharps. It's currently being rebarreled with Brent Danielson's PP reamer in .45-70.

You might be able to load it without tools, it depends on how well your bullets fit the fired brass. I reload most of my BPCR rifles with slip fit bullets so do not size or use seater dies. My .50-140 has a reasonably loose chamber so my bullets would have to be well over the .512" groove in order to slip fit. I used .50-90 dies to size and seat for that rifle. I used 135gr of Goex Fg and a 700gr BACO Creedmoor bullet. The recoil was pretty nasty, but tolerable while sitting and using cross sticks. It wasn't really a precision long range rifle though. Mine is a C. Sharps with a Badger barrel.

Chris.
 
Slightly OT, but I reload my 480 and 500gr .45-70 Gov right there on the range - well, on a table behind the firing point, that is. Having very strong hands from almost 40 years of kendo and over sixty years of handgun shooting I have no difficulty in pressing the bullet into the charged case right up to the first driving band - a natural place to stop IMO.

tac
 
I agree with fingers284. If you can get a copy of it, Mike Venturino's book: "Shooting Buffalo Rifles of the Old West" is well worth adding to your library. Very informative. In one chapter, Venturino devotes several pages to the methods used by buffalo hunters to reload their cartridges. It appears that commonly, the hunters did at least neck size their cases, to keep the bullets in place. From page 76. Quote: "In the early 1870's the Sharps company said that shells needed no resizing, that a loose bullet was no problem. Shooters proved them wrong and eventually they marketed a shell reducing die and punch (From $3.00 to $6.00)". Evidently these were what we would call today "neck-sizing dies" and they were used to give some neck tension to the bullet".

As a matter of interest: If one is familiar with the Lee Reloader kit, this appears to be the modern-day equivalent of one of these basic loading setups.

In the next paragraph, Venturino goes on to say, quote: "Starting about 1875 the Sharps Rifle Company began offering reloading tools in kit form. For a Sporting Rifle they consisted of bullet mould, lubricator mould, cap awl, follower, wad cutter and ball seater".

So it seems that the buffalo hunters did indeed resize their cases...at least to some degree. For further information which may be helpful in loading your 50-140, the Paul Mathews' series of books is a good reference to the ins and outs of black powder cartridge loading and shooting. Mathews concentrates on the 45-70 cartridge. But, the methods he follows can be applied equally well to your 50-140. I would also heed Mooncoon's advice and start load development with reduced loads. 140 grains of black powder in any .50 caliber rifle is a stiff load. Will hit hard at both ends.

Note: If you wish to acquire a copy of Venturino's book, Wolverine Supplies....a site sponsor....may have one in stock.
 
My intro to BPCR was a 45-120 shooting a 605 grain slug. 3 shots was about it for the day. Yet my 45-90 and I can shoot a 405 gr. HB all day long. Have fun. give it to friends to shoot without telling them the calibre and then smile.
 
Denisb said:
My intro to BPCR was a 45-120 shooting a 605 grain slug. 3 shots was about it for the day. Yet my 45-90 and I can shoot a 405 gr. HB all day long. Have fun. give it to friends to shoot without telling them the calibre and then smile.
Click to expand...

Im saving that for the first person who makes fun of my sissy pad.
Thanks for all the advice, Ive got a pile of homework before she belches smoke and lead.
 
I owned a .54 Hawken one time that the recommended top load was 140 gr of black...I fired it once with a full charge under a 540 gr Minnie...only once, then went back and stayed at 100 gr.
 
Hurts, don't it? In a fit of youthful enthusiasm, I did the same thing some years ago with a .50 caliber Gonic muzzleloader. 586 grain lead bullet over 150 grains of Pyrodex RS. A memorable experience. Bullet blew right through my 8' bullet capture box and plowed a furrow into the pasture beyond. I think my fillings are still loose! Recoil comparable to an 8 lb rifle chambered for 416 Rigby I'd shot... once...a few years earlier. I'd rate the 50-140 as about the same for playful fun on the gun range. Let the foolish ones make fun of your sissy bag.....once!
 
I was shooting one of my Shiloh 50-70's one day and a guy with three 38-55's asked me if I wanted a Shiloh 45-120 at a good price. I asked him why he bought it in the first place.
Answer - "I was a lot younger and it seemed like a good idea at the time." 'Nuff said. I referred him to someone I didn't like who actually bought the rifle! I've learned since that he doesn't shoot it much with the full load .....

I was puzzled why 65 grs of powder and 450 grs of lead was milder in my 50-70's than the same in my 45-70's. The late Dave Higginbottom of Lone Star Rifles gave me the answer. The larger diameter of the 50-70 generates less pressure, hence less recoil.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom