I have mixed brass from 2 lots, resulting in 2 different neck thicknesses, resulting in 2 distinctive groups at 300 that over lap each other, it was repeatable time and time again. I through the scope out, mounted a known scope, same issue, so being smart I went back to the basics. skimmed turned the necks to a uniform thickness, uniformed primer pockets, deburred flashholes, trimmed to a uniform length based on the shortest case, chamfered and deburred, same load and seating depth now shoots under 2 inch 10 shot groups at 300 and the results from the labradar are the same now as they were prior to when I shot to get my drop for longer ranges.......it's the little things you can skip at 100 yards, but an eighth of an inch at 100 is closer to 1/2 inch at 300.......
How do I get single digit ES/SD?
- Thread starter diegocn
- Start date
I have mixed brass from 2 lots, resulting in 2 different neck thicknesses, resulting in 2 distinctive groups at 300 that over lap each other, it was repeatable time and time again. I through the scope out, mounted a known scope, same issue, so being smart I went back to the basics. skimmed turned the necks to a uniform thickness, uniformed primer pockets, deburred flashholes, trimmed to a uniform length based on the shortest case, chamfered and deburred, same load and seating depth now shoots under 2 inch 10 shot groups at 300 and the results from the labradar are the same now as they were prior to when I shot to get my drop for longer ranges.......it's the little things you can skip at 100 yards, but an eighth of an inch at 100 is closer to 1/2 inch at 300.......
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
It most certainly does.
If you have a dual group CONSISTENTLY.. and you know it is not wind or shooter related (ie recoil not smooth or tracking crooked, or bipod hop, sticky or grabby stock vs bags, and any other oops). Check the case necks for enough clearance (more better) AND check for donuts AND all are annealed consistently AND trim length is 'short' for your chamber and fouling.
wrt to trim length, do not assume print info is good. CHECK your chamber for what fits (it might prefer length to be longer then print). Also, make sure fouling is not building up where the chamber ends and the throat begins... making the effective neck length shorter then expected. If you get hard carbon here (end of neck portion of the chamber), get out the scraper and peel it out.
When all this is confirmed AND you still get this issue, time for a better scale... or different lot of primer... or maybe, a different match bullet.
And the biggest ghost of all... swap out to another scope. Regardless of the brand, price or what you think it does, scopes break and/or wear out... and we have played with the top tier stuff. Of course, confirm your base and rings are doing what they are supposed to.
This assumes all loading steps are done properly and you have confirmed no errors elsewhere... sorry, range pick up mixed mystery brass isn't saving you any money
It is a process and EVERYTHING matters...
and then the numbers just seem to sort themselves out...
Jerry
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Interesting. I have never had that trouble. My rifle is no F class rig, but it shoots well with no double groups. I have had double groups when doing OCW tests however, and vertical, horizontal, diagonal and scatter. I do not neck turn.
Lot's of guys practically brag of how little effort they put into case prep and get what they call acceptable results. Acceptable is a relative term and it depends upon what each of us impose on ourselves as good enough. For me, it is never good enough. If there is more I can do, I want to do it.
In my experience, I have had good results without neck turning, but that was twenty years ago. Yes, I one many matches without neck turning, but in those days we used a 1 MOA V Bull.
Since F Class has gone to a 1/2 MOA V Bull, there is no getting lazy about it any more. These days the internet has become far more prevalent and its fairly easy to find good loading and rifle configuration advice. Far more difficult to get great advice though.
Nowadays, I leave nothing to chance and I always neck turn my competition brass. I also run tight necks to minimize neck clearance and to minimize the amount of neck resizing that is required. That also guarantees low runout.
Guys never talk about the role of freebore as it pertains to accuracy and why the freebore diameter is critical when running long throats. If you have a long tight freebore, you might get away with not turning necks, but if your freebore does not turn out tight, a tight neck is your last chance at centralizing the bullet as it enters the rifling. Variation in the angular offset of the bullet as it starts into the rifling will directly affect your velocity spreads as well as accuracy potential.
I no longer buy Lapua though as I found it to be a waste of money. I can prep and sort IVI or Lake City to the point where it is even better than Lapua at a tenth of the price. Sure Lapua makes nice brass and if you dont shoot enough to go through much of it, you can do well despite its high cost. More and more experienced competitive shooters no longer see it as the only option. You just need to know how to work with the cheaper stuff.
I hope this Gempro 300 helps. My eye sight is changing and perhaps you are right, not reading the 502 as I should anymore. I believe this is the largest amount of error being introduced.
Yup...paper trumps numbers. A guy can spend too much time chasing 36 30 36 types just like < 10 ES that's for sure.
I believe the neck turning and donuts are in check on this end. Twelve and a half thou is where it's at. Annealing will also see an improvement besides the weigh scale. I purchased as salt bath annealing kit from another 'Nutter so the socket and propane torch will be retired. I thought I could be good enough with that to get around but after the powder charge being dialed in, this will be the next step for more paper talking.
No mix and match going on here. Lapua is what I am using. I just true up the pockets on those and for PPU and R-P brass, the flash holes get touched based on Ganderite's wisdom. I will use the fancy digital scale to weight the brass to see if that aspect can also be "tuned" or at least make me believe I am being particular enough to make it matter.
Just for clarity, I do have a near single digit SD value and approaching half MOA load so I have been there before. Come to think of it, it was before most of these other subtleties were introduced.
And that's what's got my goat. Maybe it's too much Mc D coffee before range time after all... ?
Have a good evening everyone.
Regards
Ronr
Some steps just don't matter as much as some think.
For example, Sam Hall and Bart Sauter don't turn necks. They found through their own extensive independent testing that there is no value in neck turning. These are world record setting shooters in a discipline that demands the utmost precision, even more so than F-Class.
And if you don't value your time, then perhaps you can get away with cheaper brass than Lapua. You will have to perform a lot more brass prep to get the same performance, which is an investment in time and money (for the equipment). I'm also not sure if cheaper brass lasts as long as Lapua - in some cartridges (like the BR cases), Lapua brass lasts 30+ firings. Over time, you may not find that cheaper brass is worth the time or $$$ invested.
I personally value my time, and using good quality components (Lapua, Berger) and good quality reloading equipment makes getting single digit SD's very easy. There's no secrets or tricks to getting single digit SD's.
For example, Sam Hall and Bart Sauter don't turn necks. They found through their own extensive independent testing that there is no value in neck turning. These are world record setting shooters in a discipline that demands the utmost precision, even more so than F-Class.
And if you don't value your time, then perhaps you can get away with cheaper brass than Lapua. You will have to perform a lot more brass prep to get the same performance, which is an investment in time and money (for the equipment). I'm also not sure if cheaper brass lasts as long as Lapua - in some cartridges (like the BR cases), Lapua brass lasts 30+ firings. Over time, you may not find that cheaper brass is worth the time or $$$ invested.
I personally value my time, and using good quality components (Lapua, Berger) and good quality reloading equipment makes getting single digit SD's very easy. There's no secrets or tricks to getting single digit SD's.
Have you ever wondered why?
Do you think its because it says Lapua on the head stamp?
Or possibly because Lapua brass has thick necks, and thick necks help reduce the angular offset of the bullet as it enters the rifling, and that low angular offset is the reason you are getting lower velocity spreads?
And if lower velocity spreads are the result of thick necks, then is it possible that chambering the rifle with less neck clearance might provide the same result with less expensive brass?
6.5 shooter
CGN Regular
- Location
- Medicine Hat
So you watched 1 video and concluded your an expert? LOL 1" would not get you into the winning circle with the games most of us play, but nice try! You do know your kind are now extinct.
I was just developing some 6.5 loads for a friend. Just did a powder charge test and seating depth test at 100 yards. Chrono data shows a SD of 7.12 over 25 rounds during the seating depth test.
6.5 Creedmoor, Hornady 140 gr ELD-M over RL16, CCI 450, unprepped new Lapua brass. Charges dropped with an Autotrickler v4/FX120 combo. Whidden Dies on a Forster Co-ax. Going to shoot some 5 shot groups next.
Rifle is a Bighorn TL3 with a Benchmark barrel, built by Paul Barrette at ReddNobb.
6.5 Creedmoor, Hornady 140 gr ELD-M over RL16, CCI 450, unprepped new Lapua brass. Charges dropped with an Autotrickler v4/FX120 combo. Whidden Dies on a Forster Co-ax. Going to shoot some 5 shot groups next.
Rifle is a Bighorn TL3 with a Benchmark barrel, built by Paul Barrette at ReddNobb.
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Looks to be a great setup.
We are really spoiled with the components and tools we have nowadays. If you can find them!
We are really spoiled with the components and tools we have nowadays. If you can find them!
Yep. Just need money to increase tools. Lol
My next search is for a brick of primers.
What kind of primers?
Fed 210
Weather or not a certain shooter finds value in neck turning cannot be decided by a couple cheery picked shooters regardless of how well known they may be.
To understand this point, I think its fair to assume these record setters are not picking up their rifle at Canadian Tire and going out to set records the next day with it. No, instead they have barrels that are often cherry picked by the manufacturer and above that, these guys often buy barrels 5 or 6 at a time and cherry pick the best shooters from that.
Furthermore, they have custom reamers, custom sizing dies to match reamers... Even the gun smith who chambers their barrels will be the best in the country... and the value of that cannot be over stated.
Advice is put forward through the lens of ones own experiences.
So when you consider the conditions that are true before the conclusion is reached, you can quickly dismiss that such a conclusion can be applied to all.
You have to first ask what neck turning does exactly... And put that into perspective relative to your chamber.
If you have a factory chamber, the only value in neck turning is relative to neck tension... and that depends on how cleaver you are in neck sizing , as it is not difficult to compensate during sizing process. I've explained this many times before.
If you have a tight neck chamber, the value of neck turning is first required, but it will reduce or almost eliminate runout. It reduces variability in neck tension, depending on clearance it can provide a supporting role in bullet alignment.
So seeing no value in any of that identifies a man of limited vision.
JB, what is your fired Lapua brass neck O.D.?
0.295" My buddy ended up shooting a 0.5 MOA group at 1000 yards, so I guess it's working OK.
