I have found that while still ok, CCI Std has slipped a bit. Federal Automatch used to be ok, but not so much any more. I want to try S&B Canadian Match, I have read some encouraging things. Norma Tac 22 (made by RWS) has been my go to for a while. I have been paying less for it than CCI STD.
How Do You Explain Rimfire?
- Thread starter grauhanen
- Start date
kbdplinker
Regular
- Location
- Toronto, Ontario
I've been testing Norma TAC 22LR. Price is similar to CCI SV, but I find it to be more accurate and consistent
I don't care as much about what I see shooting at targets, only what I see when shooting in the gopher patches I frequent. Targets at the range are just for sight in purposes. Rodent #s taken at 50,75,100, and longer are all that matter to me and I just look for what my rifles seem to prefer ammunition wise for accuracy and how they perform when they arrive at a living target.
Owned a few CZs over the last 10 years, 16 total, and in the last couple of years have added 3 Tikka to the mix. In the CZ camp I can't find a single brand that comes close to CCI 36gr HP mini mags for accuracy and I've tried them all. Most impressive is the accuracy at 50 -150 yds. Very predictable and it's never varied year to year. If I don't connect its on me and not the ammunition or rifle. Other than the holdover I don't see variances from 40 - 125 yds and there's zero questioning how they perform on impact. 40 gr roundnose just don't perform anywhere close when it comes to one shot knockdowns.
This is not willy nilly shoots over 3-4 years either. I'll take 3-500 shots per day. 5-7 days per year when the numbers are there which is usually the case, and has been consistent for 12 -13 years. The last 3-4 years I've kept logs of hit %'s and ranged yardages in the 50+ variety also, and very rarely does it drop below 90%. Depending on number of 75 - 125+ of course. Last year I leaned heavier on the Tikkas in an effort to get a better feel for them and not a whole bunch of difference from the CZ being honest. Only in 17hmr which isn't part of the discussion.
So for me the answer is accuracy is a byproduct of rifle and ammunition compatability in combination along with good glass and I haven't found better than the 3 options mentioned above in the field. All 3 will outperform my Anschutz heavy barrel at 25 -50 yds using SK 40gr ammunition also. It's not even particularly close
Owned a few CZs over the last 10 years, 16 total, and in the last couple of years have added 3 Tikka to the mix. In the CZ camp I can't find a single brand that comes close to CCI 36gr HP mini mags for accuracy and I've tried them all. Most impressive is the accuracy at 50 -150 yds. Very predictable and it's never varied year to year. If I don't connect its on me and not the ammunition or rifle. Other than the holdover I don't see variances from 40 - 125 yds and there's zero questioning how they perform on impact. 40 gr roundnose just don't perform anywhere close when it comes to one shot knockdowns.
This is not willy nilly shoots over 3-4 years either. I'll take 3-500 shots per day. 5-7 days per year when the numbers are there which is usually the case, and has been consistent for 12 -13 years. The last 3-4 years I've kept logs of hit %'s and ranged yardages in the 50+ variety also, and very rarely does it drop below 90%. Depending on number of 75 - 125+ of course. Last year I leaned heavier on the Tikkas in an effort to get a better feel for them and not a whole bunch of difference from the CZ being honest. Only in 17hmr which isn't part of the discussion.
So for me the answer is accuracy is a byproduct of rifle and ammunition compatability in combination along with good glass and I haven't found better than the 3 options mentioned above in the field. All 3 will outperform my Anschutz heavy barrel at 25 -50 yds using SK 40gr ammunition also. It's not even particularly close
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OkayShooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nova Scotia
Nobody does challenges anymore. Mostly keep to themselves.
You try and start a challenge more suited for less experience and to get out and have fun. And these elite get pissy. Because takes away from theirs. But it is dead. Because they rubbed people the wrong way and forgot what is was like to have fun. Then you got these people that look up to these people and be mini elites but are terrible. Talk the talk, but never posts any groups.
I was shooting F class. This younger member with a family wanted to try. Got talking about guns. Told him it doesn't take much to get started. Im running a 600$ Anschutz. This elite guy told me my gun is stupid. You need this Anschutz and cut you a deal on this 2500$ scope, if you want to complete. This is all for club level, not Olympics, or for a grand prize. But club level.
YMMV. Ive gotten death threats, told me to kill myself. Over the most minor ####. Proud of my service and teens starting a bomb fire in a school parking lot. This site used to be better.
It has been the last 10-12 ish years that became a dumpster fire. The man that got me into shooting walked away like many OGs because the constant infighting. 2003 to pre Trudeau was a much better times.
The politics, the bans, the inflations etc made people here more azsholes
Shooting is suppose to be fun. Many forget what it is to have fun.
kbdplinker
Regular
- Location
- Toronto, Ontario
It's the same in just about any hobby or sport now.
You can't just have fun if you open yourself up to trying to participate and learn.
Years ago I was enthusiastic about photography. Had modest equipment. Beginner stuff, but better quality. Was enjoying it. Joined a camera club, some forums etc. in about two years I gave it up because of the exact same thing. Snobbish elitists that say you will never get anywhere unless you spend tens of thousands on equipment. Belittling anything you say especially online. Took all the fun right out of it. These aren't people that are doing well in photo competitions themselves in a lot of cases, but wannabes. Even so, there are still people that truly want to share their knowledge and help bring up new people in the sport/hobby. It's just those some that get joy in ruining it for others.
I think it's the same with just about anything. Could be cooking, bicycling, espresso making, gardening, woodworking... pretty well anything that requires buying tools, supplies, and especially anything that requires learning special skills to enjoy the hobby. If you reach out, you will get bombarded by "experts" and "elitists" that will want to control and browbeat you until you give up or run out of funds.
Thankfully there are sincere people that truly enjoy helping others develop.
I used to compete in issf-style pistol matches. Out of a ransom-rest, most bulk standard velocity ammo shot better than I did, so I only used “match-grade” for competitions, and bulk for practice.. but when I was shooting 10,000 rounds of .22 for practice, you could still get a case (5000) of some .22 ammo for under $200. Sometimes it’s not how much you spend, as much as it’s how much deliberate practice you do.
To be the second person to actually answer your questions.
If you make the following assumption: "Higher quality match ammo, not bulk .22LR." Then the rest of those questions are irrelevant. Match ammo should be of high quality, and "higher quality match ammo" should be superior to 'match ammo' that now you are into the most premium (and most expensive) ammo. If the manufacturer is doing their thing no lot will be "better" than the other at a level that matters except for the most rare persons doing Olympic shooting.
If you are talking 'match' ammo or just 'quality' ammo then:
1 - B
2 - B
3 - B
4 - B
My parents had sequentially serialized CZ .22LR rimfire rifles. They tested one and found that Eley Target was getting phenomenally good groups at 100 meters so they bough a case of it (like 10 bricks) to find out the second rifle got 'minute of barn' with Eley Target and shot better groups with bulk ammo than it. They ended up using Aguila if I remember correctly in the second rifle. I do believe they contacted CZ about it after a gunsmith inspection and bore scope found no reason for poor accuracy with Eley, and CZ said both rifles were assemble midday on a Tuesday or something (so no, one wasn't after a machine breaking, or one on Friday end of day while the other on another day).
Zero reason for them to shoot differently with the same ammo, but they did. Other real life experience has shown me that real life example is relevant as I have seen it before.
Well, .22 bulseye seems to be doing well; people crawling out from everywhere... to get their exemption letter (many from our club have done so). Club Level IDPA shoots are still well attended. I'm old and slow, but still find them fun.
Club lever fun shoots were so poorly attended that we canceled them. We hosted a gun cleaning day, to come out and learn about gun cleaining, stripping, dissassembly/reassembly. The six of us who were running it were to only ones who showed up; that turned into a beer day.
Same with sight ins, we off a day for people to come out and learn a bit about scope mounting, set up, some basic MOA explanation, no one shows up, yet every year I run into new members who are going through boxes of ammo and never find zero due to lose scopes, eye relief issues, PIC rails with excessive moa, so can't zero... Most don't "need" or "want" any help. They got it all off the internet.
Then we have the gung-ho opperator types where mag dumps and destroyed back stops are the order of the day.
We had set asided a couple bays outdoors for shot gun paterning. How many shells does it take to patern a shot gun? A box? Two boxes? A case? I must have been doing it wrong, one or two shells is all I need.
No gun culture for most of thest guys, their dads/uncles did not teach them, they take the safety course, get a PAL and they are journeyman experts.
None of them are interested in competition; it's all about hardware and cool.
Maybe fudds are not so bad.
Club lever fun shoots were so poorly attended that we canceled them. We hosted a gun cleaning day, to come out and learn about gun cleaining, stripping, dissassembly/reassembly. The six of us who were running it were to only ones who showed up; that turned into a beer day.
Same with sight ins, we off a day for people to come out and learn a bit about scope mounting, set up, some basic MOA explanation, no one shows up, yet every year I run into new members who are going through boxes of ammo and never find zero due to lose scopes, eye relief issues, PIC rails with excessive moa, so can't zero... Most don't "need" or "want" any help. They got it all off the internet.
Then we have the gung-ho opperator types where mag dumps and destroyed back stops are the order of the day.
We had set asided a couple bays outdoors for shot gun paterning. How many shells does it take to patern a shot gun? A box? Two boxes? A case? I must have been doing it wrong, one or two shells is all I need.
No gun culture for most of thest guys, their dads/uncles did not teach them, they take the safety course, get a PAL and they are journeyman experts.
None of them are interested in competition; it's all about hardware and cool.
Maybe fudds are not so bad.
I looked again, and pretty B was that I came up with across the board.
Just a small note on smallbore accuracy.
When I started shooting , I shot C.I.L. Pistol Match or Canuck in my sporting class rifle.
I shot the same scores with high end ammo as the cheap stuff
15 years later I later shot C.I.L. Match or Eley Tennex better than the inexpensive stuff , but I was also a far better shooter and my classification showed that.
However, this was in 3 position match rifle shooting with iron sights at 50 meters, not a scope equipped , benched rifle.
Things have progressed greatly to the point where my older brother just put a tuner on his .22 Fclass rifle and in testing a little number of ammo with it, found dramatic accuracy results after shooting using the tuner.
Cat
Just a small note on smallbore accuracy.
When I started shooting , I shot C.I.L. Pistol Match or Canuck in my sporting class rifle.
I shot the same scores with high end ammo as the cheap stuff
15 years later I later shot C.I.L. Match or Eley Tennex better than the inexpensive stuff , but I was also a far better shooter and my classification showed that.
However, this was in 3 position match rifle shooting with iron sights at 50 meters, not a scope equipped , benched rifle.
Things have progressed greatly to the point where my older brother just put a tuner on his .22 Fclass rifle and in testing a little number of ammo with it, found dramatic accuracy results after shooting using the tuner.
Cat
What sets the marksmen apart from a master class shooter? Aside from, I suppose, accuracy and group size.I don't compete in 3 position smallbore much anymore, but when I did, you could tell right away the difference between a Marksman or Sharpshooter class shooter and a Master Class shooter.
But then, that was before the internet as well when everyone was an " expert"
Cat
Cheers,
Marlin
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Not group size, scores only .
The classifications of Marksman, Sharpshooter, Expert and Master in both sporting rifle and match rifle .
I can't remember the bracket averages exactly, but it was not just one target , it involved several targets shot in competition.
The targets were shot using iron sights and in sporting rifle class no sling was allowed .
Match rifle class included a sling , and in Free rifle , palm rests and adjustable hook butt plates.
I will have to dig a bit deeper to get thd classification cut offs for you.
The NRA classifications are easier to find
Marksman- below84%
Sharpshooter-84% to 89%
Expert- 89% to 93%
Master - 94% to96.99%
High Master - 97% +
Percentage would depend on the scoring of particular targets, generally out of 100 or 200
Cat
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OkayShooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nova Scotia
The AVG of your scores, from ranked/scored matches.
Cat, Shooter,
Thanks guys. For some reason I thought you (Cat) was referring to how the better shooters would carry themselves, or give other visual cues as to their skill.
Along the lines of maybe they let their scores speak for themselves, and don't brag about themselves, or belittle anyone else.
Cheers,
Marlin
Thanks guys. For some reason I thought you (Cat) was referring to how the better shooters would carry themselves, or give other visual cues as to their skill.
Along the lines of maybe they let their scores speak for themselves, and don't brag about themselves, or belittle anyone else.
Cheers,
Marlin
Well, in a match situation there is not as much arrogance among the top shooters as one would think, basically because on any given day even a master class shooter could have his ass whipped ! They also don't need to blow their own horn but try and help new shooters.LOL
Let's face it, there will always be those types, but they rarely make the podium, because mental attitude is such that arrogance can get in the way of a person's mental state when it comes to extreme concentration.
The exact opposite actually.
I have seen a master class fullbore shooter recently loan a new shooter his best sling glove and use his spare one for himself , and many years ago I remember my father talking about a well known Master ( his son is also on this forum) loaning his sling to a shooter who had a malfunction on his, and Mr. Warner using a lesser sling himself.
Cat
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I guess I didn't mention that I was classed as "Master" in Standard Pistol and Centre-fire pistol, and "Expert" in Rapid-fire, Free, and Air - most of it with second-hand guns, handloads for the .32, and bulk stuff for most of the .22. As for rifle - I really only shot fullbore, and only won one "aggregate" match - ever - and can't really speak for rimfire guns "liking" different lots of ammo.. "minute of gopher" accuracy is sufficient for me. Recently re-acquired a match-grade (second-hand) air pistol, and a week later a "carpal tunnel syndrom" diagnosis - which may be contributing to my having mini-spasms in my hand when I'm aiming - curse this old-age stuff...
All that said - it's often the "nut behind the butt" that affects accuracy more than the equipment.
All that said - it's often the "nut behind the butt" that affects accuracy more than the equipment.
This is so true!
Removing scopes and rest from the equation puts the majority of the accuracy
Component on the shooter.
It's why I love shooting smallbore match rifle, 300 meter Free Rifle and TR!
Cat
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OkayShooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nova Scotia
I wish I could do 3P. I can only shoot off hand or bench. Damage of my disk at C3 and C4 and C5 and C6. Prone cocks my head back too much and my supporting arm goes numb.
Had to resort to putting scope on my 1403. Someday Ill make a submission with my apeture gun. Or slap them on a rifle that already made the list.
