How do you hang your steel?
- Thread starter Jkazs
- Start date
I use multiple strands of rebar wire strung through holes in the plate. Not because I think it's the best, but it's something I have on hand all the time and only need a pair of pliers to repair if I shot through them all. I'm cheap, and make my targets out of whatever I have on hand.
You are talking about a different target system than the OP suggested and quoting regulations for that different system.
Steel targets mounted to a stand or similarly restrained are reccomended/required to be at a downward angle of 20 degrees as many manufacturer's specify or suggest the same. Those targets generate bullet fragments with energy because the target is securely mounted and its 'pointed downwards' to control the majority of the bullet fragments. I agree with Slavex in relation to what the target angle predicates, but its a requirement and 20 degrees down makes more sense that any other direction
Further 20 degrees doesn't exceed the critical angle for ricochet and doesn't result in one.Hanging steel targets, like falling or knock down targets are not required to be at 20 degrees, gongs and hanging plates just hang loose and the bullet dumps its energy into the unsecured target and any fragments just splatter about harmlessly, without any meaningful energy, and if anything continue forward with the target. As such you can hang a gong at its natural 'flat' inclination. Again, none of these targets exceed or meet the critical angle for ricochet and don't result in one.
Perhaps its semantics but I disagree with the term ricochet in relation to the spall or splatter generated by contact with steel targets.
Ricochets suggest an unplanned event of by defintion, and also bring to mind a large or complete bullet that has altered its course, maintained energy and mass, and just sounds downright dangerous and wreckless to the lay person.
In all but the rarest of cases, when a soft item with tremendous energy (bullet) hits a much harder item (AR500 target) the result isn't a ricochet, its the near complete destruction of the bullet. Tiny fragments with very little mass (therefore very little energy) are dispersed in a known and predictable pattern in a place or space that is designed to accomodate them.
Disagree with the terms, call it semantics, whatever you like..but when I'm talking to a lay person or a CFO inspector I don't talk about 'ricochets', as they make the practice of shooting steel sound hazardous to the participants and possible spectators, neighbours, etc. I hear shooters talking about ricochets all the time in reference to Steel targets and I think to myself that isn't a very productive or purposeful description if you want to keep your range open and not bear more scrutiny than you are already suffering.
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Steel targets at a flat presentation, not angled, produce the least amount of splash back to the firing line. Any downward angle results in significant splash coming back. Distance obviously matters as to how far it comes back.
Agree to disagree, we obviously had different experiences while shooting competitively.
if material is coming back at you from a vertical hanging plate (flat presentation) it's likely coming from the spray hitting the stand or other objects around the plate. Physics is physics, hanging straight up and down the splash spreads in a circle with minimal arcing back towards the shooter. Any angle results in that same circle of debris, except now some is absolutely coming back due to the angle of the plate. Loose hanging plates reduce splash even more, on single shots, but can cause stuff to come back if you hammer them and their angle changes dramatically.
Agree to disagree, we have obviously had different experiences shooting competitively.
coleman1495
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Whitecourt
Firehose is my favourite thing to hang steel from. They end up slightly tilted forward with the firehose behind the plate. This has been the toughest thing to hang from.
fingers284
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Alberta Cowboy Ranges
I'm with Garand on this as well. he and I have considerable experience shooting sloped/angled steel ( I was in an argument with the AB. CFO of the time over shooting distances to HG targets and had to do an estimate of the # of rounds our club fired over the years to convince him we knew what we were talking about). The # of verifiable rounds fires over 23 yrs of my continuous participation was well over 2 million and we have had exactly two instances recorded of blood being drawn from splatter at our events... and both of those are verified shotgun pellet spatter off the irregular or flat target stands - shotguns were the only guns being fired at the instant of being struck. Both instances were very minor, one was a klenex wipe-off and continue on, the other, because a small piece of lead wouldnt easily pull with tweezers was taken to a local hospital and it was pulled out, bandaide on it, and the shooter was back on the range before we finished up.
By the way I did win the argument with the CFO over our target distance at 8 meters, he specified 10 meters as minimum according to the published range guidelines. I pointed out that he was right for Jacketed bullets ( it is specific in it's wording that they are referring to jacketed) but there is no specification published for cast slugs and along with that and the clubs 2 million rounds experience he backed down. That was 8 or 10 yrs ago and we now have a new CFO and the current club exec is having the same argument over again.
By the way I did win the argument with the CFO over our target distance at 8 meters, he specified 10 meters as minimum according to the published range guidelines. I pointed out that he was right for Jacketed bullets ( it is specific in it's wording that they are referring to jacketed) but there is no specification published for cast slugs and along with that and the clubs 2 million rounds experience he backed down. That was 8 or 10 yrs ago and we now have a new CFO and the current club exec is having the same argument over again.
so we get more than 2 million rounds a year shot on our steel range, it's our most popular range and is busy every day of the week for most of the year. OPen . Basic physics, and magically, high speed photography, show how bullets, jacketed or not, react when hitting steel. The splash pattern goes out in a circle, parallel to the plate, regardless of the angle hung, it generates the same circle. So, if a plate is at angle that splash heads back towards the firing line as it comes off the top of the plate, and rains down at various distances. The stuff that comes back and hits people and causes injuries is stuff that hits the stands, rocks, or other items after it has become a part of that splash. Angled targets or flat targets do not change how that happens. That's why at close distances you see groups like Steel Challenge put hay bales a few feet in front of the 7yd targets. It's to absorb that which is sent back by items on the ground.
If you want to talk experience on shooting steel, Steel Challenge long leads the way on that. We've been shooting that on Tuesdays at my club for over a decade now, before we even got our dedicated steel range. We had the CFO Range Inspector, Bob Turple, on site when we asked for the exception to shoot at 7yds and he documented the splash patterns of a variety of targets that we placed, at a variety of distances. Using both cameras as well as huge amount of giants sheets of paper placed on hangers around, in front and behind the targets. And we proved, exactly what is written above, hence our approval, that we have to this day, to put steel at 7yds for Steel Challenge (with a ground baffle when doing so). We used everything from 22 through all common pistol calibres and shotgun. We also shot it with full auto MP5s at basically arms reach (thanks to the local PD for that), and again, documented everything that occurred with the splash, spall and ricochets.
I've hung steel targets hung from just about everything over the years. Normal 3/8" logging chain is junk. One hit with a real rifle parts those on the first hit. Grade 5 and lower bolts die on the first hit. Seat belts, cut up tow straps, and found on the road semi tie-downs are better than mild steel chain, but accumulated hits proved that those are a temporary system as well. Takes a while, you might not live long enough but we shredded those once a year.
Transport 70 chain and grade 8 bolts have so far proven to be timeless. We've cut the 4 x 4 posts in half from lead spray, broken 1/2" AR500 targets into pieces but haven't cut a single chain or broke single bolt. Granted; some nuts have turned themselves loose in that time but grade 8 self locking nuts would fix that.
Transport 70 chain and grade 8 bolts have so far proven to be timeless. We've cut the 4 x 4 posts in half from lead spray, broken 1/2" AR500 targets into pieces but haven't cut a single chain or broke single bolt. Granted; some nuts have turned themselves loose in that time but grade 8 self locking nuts would fix that.
Rob Turple, wow, there is a name I have not heard in decades. He and I went through Cornwallis and Pay Level 3 in 1973. A couple of years before that his father was written up as the toughest soldier in Canada by one of the Toronto newspapers. I do find that hard to believe, he was an RCR, probably why Rob became a Patricia.
I have run shot gun matches with steel challenge targets at 90 degrees at 20-25 yds and multiple competitors receiving hits from lead shot coming back at them using 7 & 8 shot. I regularly compete in a disciple using cast lead bullets, I have shot many matches where I have taken ricochets. I even shot a match where a 255 grain LRNFP in .45 Colt that I personally shot hit the target and came straight back and hit me about 4 inches south of my belt buckle. My wife still laughs at that one. We have had different experiences, so again I agree to disagree.
I have run shot gun matches with steel challenge targets at 90 degrees at 20-25 yds and multiple competitors receiving hits from lead shot coming back at them using 7 & 8 shot. I regularly compete in a disciple using cast lead bullets, I have shot many matches where I have taken ricochets. I even shot a match where a 255 grain LRNFP in .45 Colt that I personally shot hit the target and came straight back and hit me about 4 inches south of my belt buckle. My wife still laughs at that one. We have had different experiences, so again I agree to disagree.
Steel gets hung at one of the ranges I frequent, with fire hose that's past its service life cycle. It gets donated by a local station. Usually it lasts 4 to 6 months before the steel drops and it needs replacing. But when you have a roll of a couple of hundred feet and only use a few feet for each target, it tends to last a long time. And the price is great! free!
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Shotgun is a different beast, I'll give you that, because you can have pellets impacting pellets, however, changing the angle of the steel won't help, you still get em. I've been hit more by angled steel than flat steel, with pistol, by far, but, if you shoot steel, splash is a way of life, it will hit the target, hit other stuff, and come right back at you. The closer you get, the worse it gets. Mounting bolts, hooks, stands, rocks, shell casings, all contribute.
I attended our local fish and wildlife meeting last week and the topic of steel targets came up. I was told if I do the leg work to figure out regulations that we could proceed. Can someone point me to a guideline for steel targets on approved ranges? My Google-fu didn't provide much insight and the near-by ranges who have steel targets I contacted via e-mail haven't replied. I'm also wondering if it HAS to be AR500? I live in an area of HEAVY industry/mining and 5/8" AR400 steel should be readily available for cheap/free since it is used extensively as wear plate in haultruck boxes and anything under ~18" gets scrapped. I'm looking for info like:
1) Minimum ranges
2) Hanging style/berms/backstops/etc
3) Necessary signage
4) Etc
Thanks team!
1) Minimum ranges
2) Hanging style/berms/backstops/etc
3) Necessary signage
4) Etc
Thanks team!
fingers284
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Alberta Cowboy Ranges
Im sory but the best advise I can give is to contact your local CFO rep. There apears to be no "written in stone" range guide for the different shooting disciplines from cast bullets to jacketed to jacketed at long range. I seems that every rep that comes around has a different level of "anal" over their own idea of the "sky is falling" danger envelope. I have been arguing target settings with different reps for 20 yrs or so and you never completely "win" the next rep will have the same brain washing that they are "god" as the one your currently arguing with and you will need to start over)but I will emphatically tell you to be prepared to vehemently argue every point you want to make...they have been told they are "god" and they believe it until you prove them wrong ...make them prove with unreproachable references to everything they try that you disagree with ...if you don't, they are god.
