How do you shoot Doubles?? (Kiner vs Little philosophy)

[james01]

What technique do you use, if one at all.

I have viewed videos of Phil Kiner and Frank Little discussing both of thier techniques, which are really opposites of each other.

For those unfamiliar; Kiner claims the best way to do well at doubles is to make certain the first bird breaks, then lock on to the second bird and shoot.

Little claims that once you commit to pulling the trigger on the first bird, immediately look for the second one to shoot. He states that when he shoots, most of the time he doesn't even know for sure that he has broken the first bird or not.

Both have been highly regarded All American Trap champions.

What have you done to increase your scores at doubles??

Thanks,

James

 

[Suputin]

If you miss the first one, will there be any point in continuing? Waiting to see if the first one takes a hit seems like a waste of time that could be better used focussing on making the second shot.

It all happens so fast that I can't tell you exactly how I do it. I think there is a lot of experience and instinct involved.

I would suggest that proper follow through on each bird will make a huge difference to your averages. Our brain tends to get ahead of our muscles and so without a proper follow through your muscles will tend to start job #2 before job #1 is complete which in this case result in more misses on bird #1.

I have a friend who never follows through. He drops the gun to waist level almost immediately after the shot breaks, almost as if he is embarrassed about shooting a gun. This causes him to miss ..... a lot. Follow through is very important in this shooting game.

 

[Claybuster]

Follow through is very important in this shooting game.

Follow through isn't what's important. Not stopping your gun when you shoot is what's important. They aren't quite the same thing. The large sweeping follow through you sometimes see is a waste of time and effort.

Once the gun goes bang you're finished with that target and admiring the break or watching if fly off unscathed is time lost on the second target. I often don't know whether #1 is dead or not. I've shot, it's either hit or not and it's more important that I get my eyes locked on #2.

 

[3macs1]

Follow through isn't what's important. Not stopping your gun when you shoot is what's important. They aren't quite the same thing. The large sweeping follow through you sometimes see is a waste of time and effort.

Once the gun goes bang you're finished with that target and admiring the break or watching if fly off unscathed is time lost on the second target. I often don't know whether #1 is dead or not. I've shot, it's either hit or not and it's more important that I get my eyes locked on #2.

I am the same, more than I would like to admit I have to ask if I got the 1st one. That is if I don't hear that dreaded LOST ring out

 

[oops]

There is a good vid on youtube (sorry I do not know how to post) of an interview with a US shooting team coach about how he teaches shooting doubles.Sure helped me alot

 

[Beretta687EELL]

There really is not that much of a difference between the two styles ... about 1/16th of a second. I find that I need to see that first target start to come apart or I start to move the gun to the second target too soon.

The way to improve your doubles scores is to take a lesson(s) and experiment with ammunition , hold points, etc. and shoot lots of doubles.

 

[Pete G]

trap doubles

I am not a great doubles shooter.......lower A class average.
If you are like me , we miss more 2nd birds than 1st birds.
The reason I missed more 2nd birds was that I was too slow to 2nd bird.
It is tougher to hit a more distant bird or a falling bird.

SO........we should try to break 1st bird sooner so that 2nd bird is shot at sooner.

The way that I gained time on 1st bird was to hold lower......therefor my breaks were earlier on the flight path of bird one.
This allows me to get to 2 a little sooner.

As stated by Beretta practice different things that make sense.
Pete G

 

[Beretta687EELL]

One thing that may help you on the first target is to remember that it will come out in the same place each time, so set up to shoot it bearing that in mind. IMHO many top doubles shooters spot shoot the first target, they say not, but when I watch them shoot that first target there is almost no gun movement. I am not a proponent of that, but that is something that I have observed.

My hold point for the first target is on the lip of the trap house right where the target should appear. That shortens my move to the first target. I shoot a .010 choke and use an oz. of # 8s. I rarely miss my first target and usually smoke them. As Peter indicated, the second target is the tricky one. The key is to shoot the first one fast, so you have time to acquire and move to the second target before it starts to fall.

Watch some squads of doubles shooters for a while. When the wind changes and those second targets start to drop off (go flat), many shooters miss that second target.

Another thing ... hold on tight to the gun.

 

[Covey Ridge]

I do not think one method is better than another for everyone. It is different strokes for different folks. I do not shoot a lot of doubles anymore. I have noticed a trend for many to always shoot right then left instead of the more straight away first. Also many who claim they don’t spot shoot look like they are spot shooting. Many say that I spot shoot even though I put a move on the target and see it break. I even read one fellow describe his method as follows. On a pair where you plan to take the right first hold to the right of where you plan to break the target and take it with a left gun move and continue with the left move on to the left target. He also suggests that you should not see your first target break.

My sin is that I often move to the second target before I actually locate and lock the second target. When I am hot, I'm hot and when I am not, I'm not.

 

[BCFred]

The things that seemed to have helped me the most, so far, are; setting up for the first shot so I don't have to make all that much of a movement to take it quickly; learning to look for the 2nd bird before moving my gun; and learning not to rush but be smooth. Taking the straightaway first seems to work best for me, so far, and holding my gun part way along the flight path also seems to work best. The rule I follow is to have my hold point a bit before the point where I usually see the bird clearly. The other thing that has seemed to help is watching how the birds come out and choosing a point in the environment to move my eye toward when looking for the second bird. I hope to shoot a lot more doubles next year...so, I may be taking some of this back after I do.

 

[brybenn]

I just shot doubles for the first time yesterday. I know the skill levels of the guys I was shooting with so it must have been my lucky day because I won the meat shoot and the other 4 guys are better trap gunners then I. I used a sxs baikal f/m and 7/8oz #9 (I only had my skeet loads) the advise to me was on stations 1 and 2 shoot the right bird first station 3 and 4 take the left bird first and station 3 what ever your more comfortable with. I only dropped 1 first target and 3 second targets which I think I hit 2 of them they got pushed ahead and over a bit but didn't break. For me it was easier swinging left to right but I grew up wingshooting and with ducks I start at the back and follow thro the flock as they fly into the wind.

 

[catnthehatt]

I just shot doubles for the first time yesterday. I know the skill levels of the guys I was shooting with so it must have been my lucky day because I won the meat shoot and the other 4 guys are better trap gunners then I. I used a sxs baikal f/m and 7/8oz #9 (I only had my skeet loads) the advise to me was on stations 1 and 2 shoot the right bird first station 3 and 4 take the left bird first and station 3 what ever your more comfortable with. I only dropped 1 first target and 3 second targets which I think I hit 2 of them they got pushed ahead and over a bit but didn't break. For me it was easier swinging left to right but I grew up wingshooting and with ducks I start at the back and follow thro the flock as they fly into the wind.

The easiest way is to take the straightest bird first, that is wahy they told you to take the birds the way they said to.
A southpaw shooter would reverse it.
You are obviously right handed, right handers swing easier to the left.
This is because you body is designed that way, swinging with your bi=one structure
Cat

 

[brybenn]

Makes sense. My cheap thrower on the farm only does nested pairs and they come out only a few feet from eachother. But the doubles I shot new years day the right bird went high angled to the outer right post and the left bird went low and and most likely past the outer left marker if it had the height to make the distance. I was told yesterday by a guy who shoots a lot of doubles that the set up was not at all the way it shouldve been. Altho I still had fun

 

[BCFred]

...the doubles I shot new years day the right bird went high angled to the outer right post and the left bird went low and and most likely past the outer left marker if it had the height to make the distance...

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think the right bird should be a straightaway from station 2 and the left one straightaway from station 4. At least I helped a guy set up a trap for doubles awhile ago and I believe that is what we did.

 

[hogiron]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think the right bird should be a straightaway from station 2 and the left one straightaway from station 4. At least I helped a guy set up a trap for doubles awhile ago and I believe that is what we did.

You're right Fred, it sounded like the guy shooting doubles was new to the doubles game.
I always shoot the straight-a-way as soon as it appears above the house, and then the move to the second bird is usually short. On station 3 I take the quarter angle to the left first, and then move over to the right for the second one. The quicker I take the first bird, I usually get the second bird still rising, and makes for an easier track. I'm a right handed shooter and right eye dominant, that's what works for me.

 

[catnthehatt]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think the right bird should be a straightaway from station 2 and the left one straightaway from station 4. At least I helped a guy set up a trap for doubles awhile ago and I believe that is what we did.

Yup, that's the way it shoould be.
Cat

 

[BCFred]

I always shoot the straight-a-way as soon as it appears above the house, and then the move to the second bird is usually short. On station 3 I take the quarter angle to the left first, and then move over to the right for the second one. The quicker I take the first bird, I usually get the second bird still rising, and makes for an easier track. I'm a right handed shooter and right eye dominant, that's what works for me.

I'm not sure what I do with stations 3 and I always am a little bit unsure with it. The comment has made me think. It occurs to me that shooting from station 3 the way you describe means you are moving so your cheek is more likely to stay on the stock when making the larger swing on the second bird. That seems like potentially a real benefit of doing it that way. I think I'm going to do it that way and stick with it. Thanks for the tip. Of course, you realize that giving your secrets away means I might beat you some day...right...Fred

 

[Covey Ridge]

I'm not sure what I do with stations 3 and I always am a little bit unsure with it. The comment has made me think. It occurs to me that shooting from station 3 the way you describe means you are moving so your cheek is more likely to stay on the stock when making the larger swing on the second bird. That seems like potentially a real benefit of doing it that way. I think I'm going to do it that way and stick with it. Thanks for the tip. Of course, you realize that giving your secrets away means I might beat you some day...right...Fred

Fred,
Your reasoning above would work if you are left handed. A right handed shooter would be more likley to come off the stock on a left to right move.

 

[BCFred]

Fred,
Your reasoning above would work if you are left handed. A right handed shooter would be more likley to come off the stock on a left to right move.

LOL. Thanks CR. After standing in my shop visualizing things and swinging my shotgun for awhile, I concluded that you were absolutely right. Guess I had my usual 50/50 chance. In fact, here might be a clear example of my confusion on the line. I guess a good way to think of it might be that, being right handed, I am more likely to move my head off the gun if I am moving the gun away from where my head is, i.e. swinging to the right. When I swing left the gun is moving toward my head and my head is less likely to come off the stock. So, that being true, I'm going to take the bird on the right first from station 3 because i can set up for it and my longer swing on the second bird will be to the left where there is less chance of moving my head off the gun. Bird on the right at 3, bird on the right at 3...if I keep repeating it until the next time I shoot doubles I'll get it right for sure Now that I think about it, maybe there is something to be said for taking the bird on the right first at 4 and 5 too, but I don't do it.

 

[Covey Ridge]

Fred,
I am starting to see more than a few experienced doubles shooters taking right bird first at all stations. I have not kept up with what the top shooters in the south are doing but I have heard that there is a trend toward right first.