Brassman66
CGN frequent flyer
People raised on the Prairies, Desserts and Mountains often can see further better then People in Cities.
Cheers
Cheers
How far Can a 22 Hit a Target? 300 yd? 500 yd More?!!
- Thread starter Ganderite
- Start date
That was a fun video.
I ran a quick calculation for the holdover angle of the rifle barrel using a subsonic target ammo spec I have entered into Strelok Pro. (the BC number assigned by the manufacturers for rimfire ammo, if you can find it, have to be taken with a grain of salt, so this is very rough, ballpark-ish).
I was initially guessing that the iron sight hold over angle for the 710 yard shot would be extreme, way up into the empty blue sky in a crazy angle,.....but I was wrong. I think I sometimes forget that 1 MOA is only 1/60th of a degree.
Assuming the rifle bore is in the same horizontal plane as the target, I was surprised at how little the hold over angle is when calculated, in relation to how a human would hold the rifle with iron sights.
(and assuming I am not making mistakes in the math, which I may be...math is not my strong point).
Input data is from Strelok Pro using its catalogued input for SK Biathlon Sport (MV = 1106 fps. BC = 0.172), with a 50m zero, and temperature of 22C, humidity 50%, and station pressure 961 hPa (which was default atmospherics I had in the calculator).
With this data at 710 yards, Strelok says the MOA required for adjustable sights is 148.0 MOA up. That is roughly 1,051 inches, or about 88 feet. (likely more because I doubt the SK ammo BC is actually 0.172. I bet its closer to 0.130 to 0.140, but I digress).
However: 148 MOA is only 2.47 degrees above the horizontal. For reference, the angle of your fist held out in front of you with a straight arm is about 10 degrees of elevation. So 2.5 degrees is about 1/4 the height of your fist, or one finger held out horizontal. Not a huge elevation hold after all, when viewed in these terms?
So 22Man only needed a muscle memory hold of the barrel angle of somewhere around 2.5 degrees up from the horizontal. He could also be holding the front sight post on a selected horizon object like a hill, rock or tree that happened to be that angle.
That angle might be in the neighbourhood of an instinctive archery shooter who can hit the bullseye without aiming through bow sights. Baseball players learn to gauge an infinite range of distances and arc the throw to hit the receiver's glove, which is amazing when you think about how accurate they can be.
Seeing the two red pop cans in the video was not an issue, because that big white square gong (it looked to be about 2 feet x 2 feet square ?) should be easily seen at 710 yards, and the pop cans were centered on it, so the shooter knows where the pop cans are without having to see them. I know I can see a 12 inch square gong at 500 yards on a good day, so seeing the 24 inch gong at 710 yards should not be a problem with 20/20 or better eyesight, and assuming no impairment from mirage.
So I believe 22Man could clearly see the target gong, and muscle memory of a 2.5 degree hold of the rifle is do-able. In the video I saw at least one dust up of a bullet near the target gong, so he was sort of in the zone.
However I think adding the factors of wind, mirage, and inherent dispersion of .22 rimfire ammo, makes the odds of a hit on the pop cans next to impossible. Hits on the big gong would be doable (but unlikely) with a spotter seeing the dust ups and calling the corrections to walk in the shots, and it could require alot of rounds, like several boxes! Maybe several bricks! And if the wind was switching, maybe no hits on the gong.
I ran a quick calculation for the holdover angle of the rifle barrel using a subsonic target ammo spec I have entered into Strelok Pro. (the BC number assigned by the manufacturers for rimfire ammo, if you can find it, have to be taken with a grain of salt, so this is very rough, ballpark-ish).
I was initially guessing that the iron sight hold over angle for the 710 yard shot would be extreme, way up into the empty blue sky in a crazy angle,.....but I was wrong. I think I sometimes forget that 1 MOA is only 1/60th of a degree.
Assuming the rifle bore is in the same horizontal plane as the target, I was surprised at how little the hold over angle is when calculated, in relation to how a human would hold the rifle with iron sights.
(and assuming I am not making mistakes in the math, which I may be...math is not my strong point).
Input data is from Strelok Pro using its catalogued input for SK Biathlon Sport (MV = 1106 fps. BC = 0.172), with a 50m zero, and temperature of 22C, humidity 50%, and station pressure 961 hPa (which was default atmospherics I had in the calculator).
With this data at 710 yards, Strelok says the MOA required for adjustable sights is 148.0 MOA up. That is roughly 1,051 inches, or about 88 feet. (likely more because I doubt the SK ammo BC is actually 0.172. I bet its closer to 0.130 to 0.140, but I digress).
However: 148 MOA is only 2.47 degrees above the horizontal. For reference, the angle of your fist held out in front of you with a straight arm is about 10 degrees of elevation. So 2.5 degrees is about 1/4 the height of your fist, or one finger held out horizontal. Not a huge elevation hold after all, when viewed in these terms?
So 22Man only needed a muscle memory hold of the barrel angle of somewhere around 2.5 degrees up from the horizontal. He could also be holding the front sight post on a selected horizon object like a hill, rock or tree that happened to be that angle.
That angle might be in the neighbourhood of an instinctive archery shooter who can hit the bullseye without aiming through bow sights. Baseball players learn to gauge an infinite range of distances and arc the throw to hit the receiver's glove, which is amazing when you think about how accurate they can be.
Seeing the two red pop cans in the video was not an issue, because that big white square gong (it looked to be about 2 feet x 2 feet square ?) should be easily seen at 710 yards, and the pop cans were centered on it, so the shooter knows where the pop cans are without having to see them. I know I can see a 12 inch square gong at 500 yards on a good day, so seeing the 24 inch gong at 710 yards should not be a problem with 20/20 or better eyesight, and assuming no impairment from mirage.
So I believe 22Man could clearly see the target gong, and muscle memory of a 2.5 degree hold of the rifle is do-able. In the video I saw at least one dust up of a bullet near the target gong, so he was sort of in the zone.
However I think adding the factors of wind, mirage, and inherent dispersion of .22 rimfire ammo, makes the odds of a hit on the pop cans next to impossible. Hits on the big gong would be doable (but unlikely) with a spotter seeing the dust ups and calling the corrections to walk in the shots, and it could require alot of rounds, like several boxes! Maybe several bricks! And if the wind was switching, maybe no hits on the gong.
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Ganderite's point was some people have better eye sight then others, aiming at a large aiming point with good contrast above or behind a smaller target is what the rest of us need at some point.....
I would prefer to have great vision and shoot with peeps with an " if I can see it I can hit it approach" but clearly, or not so clearly that reality is not eternal.
Good news is optics have never been better or more affordable they they are today!
I recall reading, some years ago, about a couple different groups that could have had no possible access to magnified vision, all were able to accurately plot out the paths of various planetary moons that were thought to be unable to be seen with the naked eye. Polynesians, and Sub Saharan Africans, who had both been able to show that they had been tracking and watching these moons around planets that they should supposedly not have been able to see.
Have also read, that for reasons unknown, the Colorblind, were discovered to have a particular adeptness at picking out camo netting in WW2 recce photo strips, to such an extent that those who were colorblind got routed through some additional testing when they came to management's attention. Things you read, eh? Dunno if those two different stories have any merit, but it is not a stretch to think that despite the basic similarities in our general layouts, biologically, there are gonna be some who have the sight, as 'what they are good at', and it kinda boggles that they probably don't know that seeing the squirrels on the other side of the valley, isn't normal, or they got told enough times that it was impossible, that they stopped pointing the stuff out to 'the rest'.
Then you get to account for the variability in the Barrel quality of a 10/22! LOL! I figure I got a great barrel in mine, as those things go. Heard all the horror stories, but mine has always worked well enough for my needs. Enough that I never did Barbie Doll the thing up.
Kinda makes a fella wonder, what tiny little 'edges' might be picked up, by doing as they used to picking out Sniper rifles from the crop, in some Militaries, where they expected the Armorers to test shoot them, and grade them for accuracy, as well as condition! Imagine having a couple months worth of Walther or Anshutz's best, racked and stacked, then getting to sort out which were the "good" ones! Man! Talk about splitting down hairs!
Oh yeah. The video. Geezus! All those guys standing around, and nobody could be bothered to count rounds?
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I believe he could see the pop cans, although I'm sure I could not. I have shot long range with a guy who could see the NRA regulation scoring and spotting discs at 1000 yards. Kind of freakish 
.
Many inexperienced people think that have a large amount of drop makes shooting at distance impossible. The main hindrance is actually lack of a good BC bullet which means you are extra affected by small unseen changes in wind. I have spent a fair bit of time shooting long range with black powder rifles. We have much better sights than that .22 has, and much better bullets, but they move at pretty low velocities ( 1350 muzzle, ~950 at 1000 yards ). The drop is quite high. Like 100+ minutes. But the barrel angle is only a few degrees, not like the artillery lobs people think it is.
Even with our much better bullets and sights, hitting a pop can at 710 yards within 3 or 4 shots would be a fluke. As an example the NRA ten ring is 2 minutes of angle at 600 yards. Hitting it often is normal, but not for every shot in a 10 shot string. Too much subtle wind effect.
Chris
.Many inexperienced people think that have a large amount of drop makes shooting at distance impossible. The main hindrance is actually lack of a good BC bullet which means you are extra affected by small unseen changes in wind. I have spent a fair bit of time shooting long range with black powder rifles. We have much better sights than that .22 has, and much better bullets, but they move at pretty low velocities ( 1350 muzzle, ~950 at 1000 yards ). The drop is quite high. Like 100+ minutes. But the barrel angle is only a few degrees, not like the artillery lobs people think it is.
Even with our much better bullets and sights, hitting a pop can at 710 yards within 3 or 4 shots would be a fluke. As an example the NRA ten ring is 2 minutes of angle at 600 yards. Hitting it often is normal, but not for every shot in a 10 shot string. Too much subtle wind effect.
Chris
We are a diverse species that's for sure!
I have read accounts of shamanism and out of body experiences as well where using astral projection people are able to take their conciseness and sight to distant places.... it would not be difficult of an astral traveller to check out the stars, planets and moons along the way.... so much we don't understand.
Threemorewishes
CGN Regular
- Location
- Ottawa Ontario Canada
He was aiming at the big white square.
This comment absolutely supports it. Why there are no optometrists there…. Lol
Yeah, I guess. But this was just individuals among the peoples, who were able to demonstrate through their direct observation, that they were able to see with their naked eye, celestial bodies that were considered not possible to see, un-aided.
saskgunowner101
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- near Prince Albert
That's pretty much it, with a side dish of aim point on some other object in view, and a dash of luck. If you lob enough bullets at a target, eventually you're gonna hit it. As for supernatural/super human eyes fairy tales, I'd take them with a grain of salt. Sure, it's possible and likely that a few individuals actually have incredible above average vision, whether for distance, light gathering, or color/contrast, but let's stay on planet earth here.
Yep, my mother, prairie born and raised. Best eyes ever. I couldn’t do chit without her seeing me, lol
Some people have eagle eyes that's for sure!
The Sumerian's from around 4000-2000 BC wrote in cuneiform on stone tablets about their knowledge of the solar system and described planets like Pluto that were not seen by modern eyes through telescopes in 1930.
Perhaps an apropos analogy. The wording itself makes it seem like the Sumerians somehow really knew about Pluto, even though that was impossible. It's not unlike believing that it seems someone can shoot a pop can with a .22LR at 700 yards using only iron sights.
Perhaps an apropos analogy. The wording itself makes it seem like the Sumerians somehow really knew about Pluto, even though that was impossible. It's not unlike believing that it seems someone can shoot a pop can with a .22LR at 700 yards using only iron sights.
Grauhanen, when the scientists figured out how to read the Cuneiform script they were apparently amazed at the descriptions of our solar system but also recognized extra planets that until 1930 they thought was an error. Not sure why you think that they would bother accurately recording things they didn't know about, but it is what it was.
Sumeria is interesting in that it popped up from seemingly nowhere and had most of the knowledge, institutions and structures that modern societies are built on..... as far as I know there is no really good explanation of where the base knowledge came from. Some have even gone so far as to suggest alien involvement in an effort to explain the sudden intense burst of knowledge, those people would explain the knowledge of the cosmos as being gifted from the "gods" who came down from the sky and laid out a new social order along with some gene therapy for the smartest apes they could find....
It's a big universe and getting bigger which is another strange concept to ponder. Perhaps not all UFO's are amateur hobby balloon's or Chinese weather balloons?
Back to .22 Man,
Connecting with a can at 700yards shooting a .22lr definitely requires some faith, and a lot of luck! Like all good dreams it starts with the belief that while extremely unlikely, it is possible.
Grauhanen, when the scientists figured out how to read the Cuneiform script they were apparently amazed at the descriptions of our solar system but also recognized extra planets that until 1930 they thought was an error. Not sure why you think that they would bother accurately recording things they didn't know about, but it is what it was.
Sumeria is interesting in that it popped up from seemingly nowhere and had most of the knowledge, institutions and structures that modern societies are built on..... as far as I know there is no really good explanation of where the base knowledge came from. Some have even gone so far as to suggest alien involvement in an effort to explain the sudden intense burst of knowledge, those people would explain the knowledge of the cosmos as being gifted from the "gods" who came down from the sky and laid out a new social order along with some gene therapy for the smartest apes they could find....
It's a big universe and getting bigger which is another strange concept to ponder. Perhaps not all UFO's are amateur hobby balloon's or Chinese weather balloons?
According to historians, Sumerian civilization certainly didn't pop up from nowhere. That never happens with any civilization except in fiction. Regarding Sumerian astronomical knowledge, in addition to the sun and moon, Sumerian observers noted the five planets that can be seen by eye. No one can see Pluto without a telescope. Pluto is smaller than our moon and is about 13,000 times further away (5.3 billion km vs 384 000 km).
For what it's worth, Erich von Däniken's ideas from the 1960s about extraterrestial visitors are widely rejected by scientists and academics as pseudoscience and pseudoarcheology.
Now back to spurious .22LR claims.
