If a bolt can be locked up inside the barrel, as in the (sic) Remington 710, then why should I pay $1300 for a custom action, when all I really need is a good barrel? To put it another way, what would be the advantages of a Nesika action and Lilja barrel over a factory 710 action and a Lilja barrel assuming everything else was equal? If the bolt locks into the barrel, it would seem to me that the action is pretty much useless.
how important is an action, really.
- Thread starter Chavez
- Start date
Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the 710 was a pressed fit barrel and can not be rebarreled.
I would also look at issues such as: quality of material, trueness of action, rigidity, firing pin, firing spring, lock time and other things that the more experienced/knowledgeable folks will point out.
Plus the bolt locks into the receiver, not the barrel.
I would also look at issues such as: quality of material, trueness of action, rigidity, firing pin, firing spring, lock time and other things that the more experienced/knowledgeable folks will point out.
Plus the bolt locks into the receiver, not the barrel.
moosehunter
Regular
- Location
- Prince George
I think that by the time you've done everything to a factory action that must be done to make it competitive in LR shooting you might as well get a custom. I spent probably a year researching this very subject, bought a PGW M15 and never looked back.
does not the 710 also have a synthetic (plastic) liner in the receiver? It also comes down to quality of manufacture and assembly. cheap guns are not very often put together with the same care and attention as more expensive ones. Having shot a 710 I'd say you are only barely getting what you paid for.
Long Range Canuck
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Athabasca Alberta aka God's Country
Totally agree!! The action is the heart of a rifle. I researched also and custom is the only way to go....I went with Alberta Tactical.
The knowledge I gained in doing so is well worth the price of a custom plus the quality and performance will never be touched by any factory rifle, or modified factory rifle. I went with a Dakota 76 action.
Yes, the bolt rides on a synthetic insert.
I handled one with they first came out, and the bolt was stiff and stick. The dealer said that they will work ing and get better - bollocks, by the time they wear in and get better, they are worn out.
Pay $50 more for the rifle and then buy the bases, rings, and scope.
The 710 is JUNK!
RePete.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Chavez, your sig really tells it all. Consistency, consistency, consistency. A BR action or one machined to those tolerances will lock mechanically the same time after time so the whole firing process is as repeatable as humanly possible. This helps the other components deliver bullets into very small groups.
It just depends on what your goals are. For hunting/varmint/LR hunting, the need to shoot inside 2" at 500yds is really not necessary so the need for a BR quality action is reduced. For hunting, the min tolerance of a BR action might pose a hindrance to function.
My recent box stock Stevens action (changed trigger, no tuning done to action)mated to a Kreiger barrel launched three rds into 2 5/8" at 1000m at a shoot. First two sighters went a bit over 3" . Maybe never happen again but I am sure that I can call this a sub MOA rig . So it is possible to make good shooting iron on 'basic' actions.
For accuracy down to 1/4MOA, a BR action is NOT necessary (remember that short range BR now requires equipment to shoot in the 0's, everything matters). A quality barrel with a proper chambering and install PLUS tuned handloads can deliver this level of performance with most factory actions. In fact, you might be lucky enough to get a Savage or Tikka and get close out of the box (1/2 MOA anyways).
Boils down to what you want to do. As with cars, going fast is easy these days. Winning a F1 race needs a bit more tech and money.
How fast do you want to go?
Jerry
It just depends on what your goals are. For hunting/varmint/LR hunting, the need to shoot inside 2" at 500yds is really not necessary so the need for a BR quality action is reduced. For hunting, the min tolerance of a BR action might pose a hindrance to function.
My recent box stock Stevens action (changed trigger, no tuning done to action)mated to a Kreiger barrel launched three rds into 2 5/8" at 1000m at a shoot. First two sighters went a bit over 3" . Maybe never happen again but I am sure that I can call this a sub MOA rig
. So it is possible to make good shooting iron on 'basic' actions.For accuracy down to 1/4MOA, a BR action is NOT necessary (remember that short range BR now requires equipment to shoot in the 0's, everything matters). A quality barrel with a proper chambering and install PLUS tuned handloads can deliver this level of performance with most factory actions. In fact, you might be lucky enough to get a Savage or Tikka and get close out of the box (1/2 MOA anyways).
Boils down to what you want to do. As with cars, going fast is easy these days. Winning a F1 race needs a bit more tech and money.
How fast do you want to go?
Jerry
J
JoeP's old business account
Guest
Well said RePete. Custom actions tend to minimize every potential pitfall in construction which is necessary for "consistent" and top notch performance.
Jack ass luck will make any rifle look good at the range.....at least once. If a person wants consistent performance, quality construction with quality materials look to the new custom actions and modern bolt action designs. Old military conversions are just that...old military conversions. They were the mainstay of old customizers.........(largely due to their availability and inexpense...)
For cutting edge performance look to new production custom guns.
Jack ass luck will make any rifle look good at the range.....at least once. If a person wants consistent performance, quality construction with quality materials look to the new custom actions and modern bolt action designs. Old military conversions are just that...old military conversions. They were the mainstay of old customizers.........(largely due to their availability and inexpense...)
For cutting edge performance look to new production custom guns.
Long Range Canuck
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Athabasca Alberta aka God's Country
2bad4u2
Your right it is a very bold statement to write, but at the same time it is a very true statement to make. "Custom" rifles are getting to be a dime a dozen....just look it up on the internet. But when you have a custom rifle built by a true craftsman who loves his work, and freely shares his knowledge everything I say is true. I think we have some of the finest gunsmith and gun makers in Canada. There are alot of people who throw parts together and call themselves custom rifle makers. Look at all the AI stocks holding standard rem .700's. In my "OPINION" i wish I had spent the money on one custom rifle over many stock rifles long ago. I can never see myself buying another factory rifle.
- Location
- calgary alberta
I would suggest an awful lot really boils down to several factors.
1 Does the shooter REQUIRE an extremely accurate rifle? if a man buys the best rifle made and does not shoot it well, this is a waste of big money.
2 Can the shooter justify and afford a custom rifle, most rifles will shoot far better than the shooter is capable of, there are some who practice alot and have the science of shooting accurately down to an artform, these few can justify the added expense of a custom action/rifle.
3 Is the shooter happy with what is being offered by the big makers? Many shooters opt to go with either a highly modified factory or a custom strictly to get either the fit or the caliber they want.
As others have stated the tighter tolerances and higher overall quality of the custom made actions, are definitely more likely to give a shooter more consistant accuracy. Factory actions can be reworked to produce the same results, but the time ( spelled money) to perform the remachining and tightening of the actions tolerances is substantial. It basically boils down to the old, it is easier to do it properly the 1st time than to try and correct the problems later, thing.
Factory actions and barrels are designed , built and assembled with price point in mind, by the designers and engineers, then the folks who work on the assembly lines assemble it as a job that pays the bills this week. The chances of them encountering the end user is nearly zero, so is top quality their 1st adjenda?
Most custom gunmakers are not in the business to get rich, it does not happen, we do ok, but there are far easier ways to make big bucks.. Typically a decent smith will spend more time than they charge for, just to get it perfect. For the most part custom gunmakers are shooters who either were unhappy at what was offered or demanded more than was available, hence making their own.
The 710 was designed to go head to head with the Savage 200s and Mossberg rifles , price points. They fill that niche, they go bang,and send a bullet down range. If that is all you want from a rifle, that is what is offered. There are better choices in that price range however. To compare the 710 , which can not be rebarreled by the way, to even a 700 is like comparing Hyundai Pony to a Corvette, and comparing the gussied up 700s and the like to a Nesika, Dakota etc is more like comparing the Corvette to a Countach.
Over the last 25 years I have built many custom rifles for people, most after owning a custom will never again buy a factory offered rifle, the individual fit and finish is just not there on most factory rifles, and it is hard to go back to 2nd place.
Accuracy is also a big thing for many. Weatherby now guarantees their rifles will shoot inder 1.5" 3 shot groups at 100 yards, I would not even think about allowing a rifle I built out of my shop if that is as good as it could shoot. I accept 1/2 moa, but try hard for better in most cases. ( not all calibers and configurations will deliver sub moa groupings) :mrgreen:
1 Does the shooter REQUIRE an extremely accurate rifle? if a man buys the best rifle made and does not shoot it well, this is a waste of big money.
2 Can the shooter justify and afford a custom rifle, most rifles will shoot far better than the shooter is capable of, there are some who practice alot and have the science of shooting accurately down to an artform, these few can justify the added expense of a custom action/rifle.
3 Is the shooter happy with what is being offered by the big makers? Many shooters opt to go with either a highly modified factory or a custom strictly to get either the fit or the caliber they want.
As others have stated the tighter tolerances and higher overall quality of the custom made actions, are definitely more likely to give a shooter more consistant accuracy. Factory actions can be reworked to produce the same results, but the time ( spelled money) to perform the remachining and tightening of the actions tolerances is substantial. It basically boils down to the old, it is easier to do it properly the 1st time than to try and correct the problems later, thing.
Factory actions and barrels are designed , built and assembled with price point in mind, by the designers and engineers, then the folks who work on the assembly lines assemble it as a job that pays the bills this week. The chances of them encountering the end user is nearly zero, so is top quality their 1st adjenda?
Most custom gunmakers are not in the business to get rich, it does not happen, we do ok, but there are far easier ways to make big bucks.. Typically a decent smith will spend more time than they charge for, just to get it perfect. For the most part custom gunmakers are shooters who either were unhappy at what was offered or demanded more than was available, hence making their own.
The 710 was designed to go head to head with the Savage 200s and Mossberg rifles , price points. They fill that niche, they go bang,and send a bullet down range. If that is all you want from a rifle, that is what is offered. There are better choices in that price range however. To compare the 710 , which can not be rebarreled by the way, to even a 700 is like comparing Hyundai Pony to a Corvette, and comparing the gussied up 700s and the like to a Nesika, Dakota etc is more like comparing the Corvette to a Countach.
Over the last 25 years I have built many custom rifles for people, most after owning a custom will never again buy a factory offered rifle, the individual fit and finish is just not there on most factory rifles, and it is hard to go back to 2nd place.
Accuracy is also a big thing for many. Weatherby now guarantees their rifles will shoot inder 1.5" 3 shot groups at 100 yards, I would not even think about allowing a rifle I built out of my shop if that is as good as it could shoot. I accept 1/2 moa, but try hard for better in most cases. ( not all calibers and configurations will deliver sub moa groupings) :mrgreen:
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Something that rarely comes up on this forum or board, the very fancy ornate custom rifle. Where custom rifle really has its roots. Think Purdy, Rigby, H&H, et al.
We tend to focus on the accuracy type of rifles that can do work at extended distances. Many customs rifles are useable but way more for show.
Been looking through some Rifle past issues and the number of huge dollar custom rifles is staggering. Rarely are these the familiar composite stocked Remchester type of rifle we discuss at length here. Just the opposite. Almost all based on some CRF action like the Mauser or pre 64 Win. They even have fixed sights. Do a search for info and pricing on a double square bridge Mauser action - yikes. Nesika - cheap!
Most have hunting as their end use but is rarely match accuracy needed. Function and form over everything else. Some of these rifles sport wood stocks where the blank costs more then a complete 'tactical' job. The wood has more swirls and twirls "sealed" with a couple of dozen hand rubbed coats of almost never drying oil.
I mean some of these rifles have $10,000US worth of engraving alone. I guess we could call these the Bentleys and Rolls Royces of the shooting world and cost about the same.
A custom rifle built by Frank Wells of SCI sold at auction for $105,000US (in the early 90's). Yes, that would be a six figure price!!!! I wouldn't be surprised if that rifle didn't even shoot MOA at 500yds.
So I guess there has to be some clarity into what type of custom rifle you want. An ornate big dollar African dangerous game boomer is going to have very different parts and needs then a drop out of a blackhawk covert tack driver. Or one to set a new 1000BR record.
These mega dollar beauts wouldn't last a day in the rough and tumble tactical world. Who would in their right mind would want to bang up a $7500 US stock anyways?. However, these would look right at home in the colonies while sipping a bit of Dom P next to your Land Rover.
So how important is the action? Always important but to different degrees. It just depends...
Jerry
We tend to focus on the accuracy type of rifles that can do work at extended distances. Many customs rifles are useable but way more for show.
Been looking through some Rifle past issues and the number of huge dollar custom rifles is staggering. Rarely are these the familiar composite stocked Remchester type of rifle we discuss at length here. Just the opposite. Almost all based on some CRF action like the Mauser or pre 64 Win. They even have fixed sights. Do a search for info and pricing on a double square bridge Mauser action - yikes. Nesika - cheap!
Most have hunting as their end use but is rarely match accuracy needed. Function and form over everything else. Some of these rifles sport wood stocks where the blank costs more then a complete 'tactical' job. The wood has more swirls and twirls "sealed" with a couple of dozen hand rubbed coats of almost never drying oil.
I mean some of these rifles have $10,000US worth of engraving alone. I guess we could call these the Bentleys and Rolls Royces of the shooting world and cost about the same.
A custom rifle built by Frank Wells of SCI sold at auction for $105,000US (in the early 90's). Yes, that would be a six figure price!!!! I wouldn't be surprised if that rifle didn't even shoot MOA at 500yds.
So I guess there has to be some clarity into what type of custom rifle you want. An ornate big dollar African dangerous game boomer is going to have very different parts and needs then a drop out of a blackhawk covert tack driver. Or one to set a new 1000BR record.
These mega dollar beauts wouldn't last a day in the rough and tumble tactical world. Who would in their right mind would want to bang up a $7500 US stock anyways?. However, these would look right at home in the colonies while sipping a bit of Dom P next to your Land Rover.
So how important is the action? Always important but to different degrees. It just depends...
Jerry
J
JoeP's old business account
Guest
Well there seems to be dust on the line on using old military conversions made into works of art...........and works of art they are done by a dying and dead group of professionals. Sad but true.
Well lets do the math......$100 action verses 1500 custom action and then a pile of labour.......of course the new custom action given the same effort will always cost more and out perform the oldie... :wink:
Speedy G in the USA (as an example) has had a few "custom" actions engraved and you can bet they are not cheap and you can bet they will cost more then a run of the mill old military rifle :roll: .
Well lets do the math......$100 action verses 1500 custom action and then a pile of labour.......of course the new custom action given the same effort will always cost more and out perform the oldie... :wink:
Speedy G in the USA (as an example) has had a few "custom" actions engraved and you can bet they are not cheap and you can bet they will cost more then a run of the mill old military rifle :roll: .
Awesome answers, guys, really interesting stuff. I still have ALOT of practice time to put in before I can even begin to think about justifying the expense of a decent BR setup, but that's where I'm headed. I've been reading alot of the articles on sniper country and sniper's paradise, but there's just too much to absorb so fast. Twist rate, depth of rifling, SHAPE of rifling, number of grooves, direction of twist, not to mention all that vibrational harmonics stuff that's way over my head right now. I keep coming up with weird ideas for things to build when I read stuff like that, now if only I had the means to build them.. (apparently deep hole drilling is not easy).
Thanks again for your answers.
Thanks again for your answers.
Long Range Canuck
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Athabasca Alberta aka God's Country
If your into all that stuff thats great. If not tell your gunsmith what you want to do with the rifle, BR,Tactical,hunting,Thing of beauty wall hanger, whatever and leave those details to the expert, And concentrate on practiceing using the rifle to it's full potential....which if done right is probably built beyond your full potential.
From the reasearch I have done on Customs, depending on what you put into them , you can have a real tac-driver built for not a hell of alot more than your factory rifles. or you can go the other way....ALL IN so to say, the nice thing about custom built is its just that. Built the way you want it. My Advice is.
1.Figure out what you want the rifle to do. and the type of shooting you are going to do with it.
2.Talk to your favorite gun guy, tell him what ya got to spend and let him impress you with what you will get for the cash.
3.Comparison shop if you like, you will know who's best for you, kinda like picking a doctor.
have fun.
- Location
- calgary alberta
Just for fun, because some here said it could not be done, I took a WW2 K98 Mauser action, 8x57, stripped it, lapped the lugs and trued up the action, replaced the trigger with a Canjar single set and rebarrelled it with 1 of Ron Smiths great stainless barrels , in 6.5x284 norma. The guys here were saying it was not possible to make a precision shooter out of a sloppy old Mauser. I will grant I spent some quality time with the action and building the rifle, turns out it shoots 142 gr MKs 5 shots into .410" at 100 yards. The point here is that a person does not hHAVE to spend huge $$ to get a good shooter. This Mauser is not BR accurate, but for a varmit rifle it's not too bad and for the $1500.00, I would charge to build it a great shooter :mrgreen:
J
JoeP's old business account
Guest
Rick - you can put lip stick on a pig, but at the end of the day its still a pig....... :lol: :lol:
- Location
- calgary alberta
Yup that is true, but it is still possible to make even a ####ty old ww2 relic shoot real good without breaking the bank. Not all of us are highly paid professional engineers with endless financial resources. ( I wish I spent more time in school, but the range was calling) I would rather shoot a very accurate pig than nothing at all,if that was all I could afford. Besides it is REAL good fun to outshoot some of the guys that spend HUGE $$ on Pandas and such, that figure that a very pricey gun will compensate for lack of skill. I am sure you have encountered some of that type as well, no matter how much they spend it is always the equipment rather than poor quality marksmanship. :mrgreen:
J
JoeP's old business account
Guest
I hear you Rick. I wish I was in that money group :roll: maybe even married into some $$$$$ or perhaps inherited......or maybe a lawyer....well maybe not.. :lol: :lol: I'm sure the number of distractions were about the same when I did my time but still managed to make it through the gauntlet.
If someone really wants something they'll manage it 99% of the time. I know I’ve done without lots and shifted my finances to enable me to make certain purchases and its still a struggle. Hell, I have yet to buy a new vehicle :shock:
There are few books on becoming financially well off..........which are excellent reads and would probably free up significant $$$$
I'd agree with your statement -
As a rule, not many are........slow lock time, sloppy bolt......but your right.... better then throwing stones, but I'd take my chances on a new Remington first!
If someone really wants something they'll manage it 99% of the time. I know I’ve done without lots and shifted my finances to enable me to make certain purchases and its still a struggle. Hell, I have yet to buy a new vehicle :shock:
There are few books on becoming financially well off..........which are excellent reads and would probably free up significant $$$$
I'd agree with your statement -
As a rule, not many are........slow lock time, sloppy bolt......but your right.... better then throwing stones, but I'd take my chances on a new Remington first!
