I have a Chargemaster and the scale is only good for an ES of .2 grains as confirmed on my Acculab 1 mg scale. Don't confuse this with the scale showing the difference, it does not. For example in a test of it measuring out 46 grains the scale always read 46 but was then weighed on my Acculab. If the Chargemaster did not read 46 then it went back into the hopper. This may well be good enough for what you are doing and that is the key.
How many decimal places do you SERIOUS reloaders go to???
- Thread starter Gunneegoogoo
- Start date
- Location
- Jameson, SK
It's done me very well so far, down to .117MOA with my 6.5.
Just wondering for when I get into neck turning, etc....
Appreciate all the answers so far.
-J.
Just wondering for when I get into neck turning, etc....
Appreciate all the answers so far.
-J.
- Location
- Jameson, SK
That was a lucky day, I guess.....
I'm trying to put the pic up, but the app won't let me....
edit:
Got home to my MBA, here's the proof... I know it's only 3 shots. I have another one with 8 of 10 within 3" at 500yds on a day with 20-25km/h cross winds. I love my 6.5!!!
View attachment 34720
I'm trying to put the pic up, but the app won't let me....
edit:
Got home to my MBA, here's the proof... I know it's only 3 shots. I have another one with 8 of 10 within 3" at 500yds on a day with 20-25km/h cross winds. I love my 6.5!!!
View attachment 34720
Last edited:
I am not a competition shooter, but at the same time I want my meat in my freezer too, so I only go to powder at +/- .04 grains. That would likely be a lot for a competition shooter but that is more accurate in my firearm than the I am, and that deer/moose/etc doesn't feel the difference.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
As a point of reference, top F Open shooters are in the 1/4 to 1/3 min range at 1000yds over a 22 rds relay.
FTR has closed the gap alot over the last few seasons and are definitely in the 1/3 min range at 1000yds. This is mechanical accuracy... winds tend to muck this up.
Our V/X ring is a 5" circle at 1000yds.... top set ups see this as a viable target.
Current NRA FTR record at 1000yds is 200-12X... The same time a shooter did a 199-16X. Winds were mild but not calm.
Recently, a shooter did a 200-13X in a local non NRA sanctioned match. NRA shoot a 1moa 10 ring, 1/2 min X ring.
It all matters.....
Jerry
Well, I personally think that that last .02 grains of powder is the least consequential factor in accurate, long range loads.
I look for a load that has a very low SD/ES, and usually I can find this quite easily without weighing powder to such miniscule values.
Neck tension, consistent seating depths, and concentricity have far more to do with this accuracy than does .02 grains of powder.
I use a good scale when weighing charges for my 1000 yard ammo, but for most hunting and casual target practice,
I throw charges out of my powder measure, or take them without question from my RCBS Chargemaster.
Groups shot with this ammo out to 500 shows plenty of accuracy to hunt big game with....even most varmints of coyote size or so.
My 220 Swift, with the 55 grain Ballistic Tip and 43 grains of H380 is a terror on varmints, even way out there, and I dump those charges right from the measure.
If it makes you happy to weigh your charges to the last kernel of propellant...be my guest!
I just have a feeling that there are many who are too anal about some things.
Cheers, Dave.
I look for a load that has a very low SD/ES, and usually I can find this quite easily without weighing powder to such miniscule values.
Neck tension, consistent seating depths, and concentricity have far more to do with this accuracy than does .02 grains of powder.
I use a good scale when weighing charges for my 1000 yard ammo, but for most hunting and casual target practice,
I throw charges out of my powder measure, or take them without question from my RCBS Chargemaster.
Groups shot with this ammo out to 500 shows plenty of accuracy to hunt big game with....even most varmints of coyote size or so.
My 220 Swift, with the 55 grain Ballistic Tip and 43 grains of H380 is a terror on varmints, even way out there, and I dump those charges right from the measure.
If it makes you happy to weigh your charges to the last kernel of propellant...be my guest!
I just have a feeling that there are many who are too anal about some things.
Cheers, Dave.
BigUglyMan
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Scotland
I weigh everything to the tenth, including loads that burn 115gr of powder.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
I doubt that that the majority of reloading scales weigh even make the +/- .1 manufacturers' warranty claims, so claims of being able to weigh to two decimal places are unrealistic unless laboratory grade scales are used in a controlled environment. Given the weight of a single powder particle, and given the volume variations in our brass, there is no benefit to that level of accuracy. If the point of the exercise is to stay within a single digit extreme velocity spread, your time is better spent perfecting your brass prep, and individual bullet selection than it is worrying about variations in fractions of a grain of powder weight. As with any manufacturing process, the key is to minimize variances by grouping components of like variances together, and assembling the ammunition with the knowledge that tolerances will exist. Keeping variables as tight as possible is fine within reason, but the rifle that wins the match isn't always the most accurate one on the line, and the bullet that takes the trophy ram need not be a clone of the subsequent one that might be called upon. In either case, its the human error behind the trigger that is the weak link in the chain of accuracy, not the tools that are used for the assembly of the rifle's ammunition, or even the variances in tolerances of the individual components.
Having said that, I'm admittedly anal when it comes to weighing out powder charges, I sometimes use two scales in tandem, a digital and a balance beam, and I set up both to weigh my powder charge using check weights. I don't bother with load increments lighter than .2 grs when I'm working up loads, even when loading small volume cartridges. Both scales have to agree on the weight, but my 505 scale has the final say, and it has to indicate a true reading twice before I believe it. Errors that are a result of moving air currents and interference from florescent lights must be accounted for, and if your scale reads dead solid when you have a fan or air conditioner running on a hot day, or heaters clicking on and off on a cold day, I don't see how that scale reading is believable.
Having said that, I'm admittedly anal when it comes to weighing out powder charges, I sometimes use two scales in tandem, a digital and a balance beam, and I set up both to weigh my powder charge using check weights. I don't bother with load increments lighter than .2 grs when I'm working up loads, even when loading small volume cartridges. Both scales have to agree on the weight, but my 505 scale has the final say, and it has to indicate a true reading twice before I believe it. Errors that are a result of moving air currents and interference from florescent lights must be accounted for, and if your scale reads dead solid when you have a fan or air conditioner running on a hot day, or heaters clicking on and off on a cold day, I don't see how that scale reading is believable.
- Location
- Saskatchewan
Keep in mind that a digital scale showing the "perfect" weight will vary +/- one increment of weight. No getting around that even with a "perfectly" calibrated scale.
I weigh new test loads to + / _ 0.1 grain accuracy when working up a load, and then drop all charges from a measure and weigh every 10th one for quality control. My measure throws most powders accurately to +/_ 0.2 grains, good enough that I can't tell any difference in accuracy or standard deviation of those loads vs. weighted to + / _ 0.1 grain.
I weigh new test loads to + / _ 0.1 grain accuracy when working up a load, and then drop all charges from a measure and weigh every 10th one for quality control. My measure throws most powders accurately to +/_ 0.2 grains, good enough that I can't tell any difference in accuracy or standard deviation of those loads vs. weighted to + / _ 0.1 grain.
There is a long list of tweaks one can do to make better rifle ammo. The law of diminishing returns applies.
I think the single most important factor is that the guy who weighs his powder charge to the second decimal place is the anal kind of guy who has been mindful and meticulous on everything, including how the rifle is set up and how carefully he shoots. One could wonder how well he would shoot without all the attention to detail, and then measure the improvements.
My son used to make ammo for military and police applications, plus ammo for DCRA Target Rifle shooting. The DCRA ammo was made by taking the condemned CBC ammo and pulling the bullets and reclaiming the powder.
The brass was sorted by headstamp year. The ball powder was mixed in garbage cans to make it uniform. The ammo was loaded on a Dillon 650 with Sierra 155 bullets.
This is surplus Berdan primed brass. Milsurp ball powder, loaded on a Dillon 650 (with the Dillon powder thrower).. No weighed charges. No brass prep. No matching of load to the rifle. 20 shots at 525 yards shot from a rail gun. 1.8" vertical 0.36MOA
In my opinion it does not hurt to be fussy about loading. However, the most important part of the process is to make a load that matches the rifle. (Finding the node.) After that, performance will come from rifle prep and shooter performance.
I think the single most important factor is that the guy who weighs his powder charge to the second decimal place is the anal kind of guy who has been mindful and meticulous on everything, including how the rifle is set up and how carefully he shoots. One could wonder how well he would shoot without all the attention to detail, and then measure the improvements.
My son used to make ammo for military and police applications, plus ammo for DCRA Target Rifle shooting. The DCRA ammo was made by taking the condemned CBC ammo and pulling the bullets and reclaiming the powder.
The brass was sorted by headstamp year. The ball powder was mixed in garbage cans to make it uniform. The ammo was loaded on a Dillon 650 with Sierra 155 bullets.
This is surplus Berdan primed brass. Milsurp ball powder, loaded on a Dillon 650 (with the Dillon powder thrower).. No weighed charges. No brass prep. No matching of load to the rifle. 20 shots at 525 yards shot from a rail gun. 1.8" vertical 0.36MOA
In my opinion it does not hurt to be fussy about loading. However, the most important part of the process is to make a load that matches the rifle. (Finding the node.) After that, performance will come from rifle prep and shooter performance.
I put a couple of hash marks on my scale, I throw charges with my powder measure or Lee Dipper and then it is just pass or fail on the scale with the hash marks. Don't ask me what the tolerance is but it works well for me, most of my shooting is with open sighted rifles.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
There is a long list of tweaks one can do to make better rifle ammo. The law of diminishing returns applies.
I think the single most important factor is that the guy who weighs his powder charge to the second decimal place is the anal kind of guy who has been mindful and meticulous on everything, including how the rifle is set up and how carefully he shoots. One could wonder how well he would shoot without all the attention to detail, and then measure the improvements.
My son used to make ammo for military and police applications, plus ammo for DCRA Target Rifle shooting. The DCRA ammo was made by taking the condemned CBC ammo and pulling the bullets and reclaiming the powder.
The brass was sorted by headstamp year. The ball powder was mixed in garbage cans to make it uniform. The ammo was loaded on a Dillon 650 with Sierra 155 bullets.
This is surplus Berdan primed brass. Milsurp ball powder, loaded on a Dillon 650 (with the Dillon powder thrower).. No weighed charges. No brass prep. No matching of load to the rifle. 20 shots at 525 yards shot from a rail gun. 1.8" vertical 0.36MOA
In my opinion it does not hurt to be fussy about loading. However, the most important part of the process is to make a load that matches the rifle. (Finding the node.) After that, performance will come from rifle prep and shooter performance.
That is a very good question and one that took me a long time to sort out. Being the one to test everything possible, I went through all sorts of testing to see what would matter to my sport and to my scores. Found stuff that mattered and alot of stuff that didn't.
Used to think 250yds was plenty to test, then 600m was plenty far to test for 900m/1000yds competition. Wow, that didn't go so well... which was a big surprise but targets don't lie.
This spring it was 850yds.... not far enough so I now test for the distances I compete at.... and that has lead to more interesting discoveries and changes.
So you move the variables around and over time you find what matters to you. Of course, all parts of the system matter but when all is in top form, powder charge makes a significant difference on target at the K. Will you see some of these variations with a MOA or MOA+ rifle or when engaging a larger target? doubt it.
We all load to the level of the system and the performance goals demanded. I can say that I wish all my competitors use a powder measure and happy to accept the variations in powder charge that provides.
would sure make getting on the podium a whole lot easier.....
YMMV.
Jerry
PS, I wish someone would make a temp stable ball powder. I have used enough in a variety of progressive and measures to see how well they meter. I suspect that the powder charges coming from the Dillon didn't vary more then a tenth.....
I use an ordinary RCBS digital scale that measures to the tenth. If we measured 10 rounds, usually they would all have the same weight. Powder was similar to BLC2. It measured dead nuts, but was not temp stable.
- Location
- Jameson, SK
Sooooo..... Once you find the node, do you guy find that starting to neck turn, or anneal, etc could mess that up???
Pardon me if this is a dumb Q, but there are just SO many variables, and SO many opinions and techniques. I know there is no "right answer", I'm just trying to get as close as I can!!!
-J.
Pardon me if this is a dumb Q, but there are just SO many variables, and SO many opinions and techniques. I know there is no "right answer", I'm just trying to get as close as I can!!!
-J.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
As brass is fired and resized, the necks work harden, bullet pull weight increases, and variable increases in velocity are observed ; this is the primary reason why we anneal the necks, velocity is then more uniform, while preventing neck cracks is just a bonus. Neck turning allows the neck of the cartridge of have even bearing with the chamber walls at the moment of bullet release, so when the bullet enters the rifling it is concentric with the bore, so neither annealing, when done properly, or neck turning will cause problem to a load that has already proven accurate. The bullet doesn't lie. If you try something and your group opens up, that change was detrimental, and should not be implemented in your loading procedure, if the group tightens up, the change was beneficial, and should be made as part of your process. The benefits of some changes are difficult to quantify, yet we do them because it makes us feel better. The danger is that the loading process can become so convoluted, that it takes all day to load 20 rounds, and it's tedious nature drives you back to buying factory ammo.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
So why after all these years, there isn't some smart chemist/engineer to take hodgdon Extreme powder stability and put it into a ball powder. There are all sorts of semi ball and ball powder that came out over the last few years claiming to be stable but none have been .
What a joy it would be to just make my match ammo on a progressive... it is only the powder charge that is stopping me.
Jerry
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
For me, all load work up is done in fully prepped brass like you would compete with... why do the load development twice?
Get rid of ALL variables and if you look through the noise, there is only 1 way to do load prep. There are a few styles of tweaking but the big job has already been done (you are tweaking around an accurate node). See my website tech section for info on how to get there easily and quickly.
Match shooters use the best components right away so we don't need to wonder if this or that is at fault. Great barrels properly installed. Solid mounts, proper bedding, great scopes, stable rests, wind flags, etc.
When I am vetting a new FTR 308 barrel built to my specs, I can get results in 18rds. Either the barrel shoots the same node, or it doesn't. I have done alot of homework to get to this point so know the components and set up needed. A brand new shooter will have a much longer learning curve but that is part of the learning and part of the fun.
Change 1 thing at a time, take good notes and monitor where each shot goes. You will get it figured out soon enough
Jerry
