how much are these worth?

[bp45cal]

these are my friends guns that he got from his dad anyone know what they are worth?the first one is a charles ingram {scottish maker i think}

this a thomas johnson shotgun also scottish?

this last one is a belgium shotgun {the liege united arms called leader}

thanks for any imput as to value or history of the guns and makers

 

[frenchyguy]

worth about 50 bucks.. ill give ya 100 just to help ya out... i am a man of the people hehehe

 

[setter]

My guess would be that you have them posted in order of value. at the same time the bottom is the most likely the most modern chambers and shootable. Not much help I know but more than $50

 

[starpuss]

ill give you 600-800 for the 3 lol but you would be on crack to take that deal.

 

[Merllin]

Such helpful responses..... I'm sure that soon enough someone that knows something will come along...

 

[Mark Dube]

Those Brit guns are both very pretty, but neither retains enough condition to hold much value (not saying I wouldn't want to own them).

Overall photos are required as well as photos of proof marks (on barrel & receiver where they meet), and the muzzle where barrels meet. How long are the barrels, are the ribs intact & secure.

The more info you can provide, the more info we can provide.

Mark

 

[ben hunchak]

Very hard to tell without seeing or handling them, so just some observations, the first one looks good, nice engraving $900...the second one is a nice hammergun that would be worth double if the wrist wasn't broken so.......$300, not sure about the Belching one....these are good quality guns and I could be way off, I am just comparing them to guns i see on the used gun racks.

 

[tiriaq]

The Ingram and Johnson guns were fine quality guns when made. The Damascus barrels won't enhance their values. Ingram is a higher grade than the Johnson, Johnson is older FWIW.
The Belgian looks to be a decent enough gun, newer than the others, probably has steel barrels. Certainly not in the same class as the others.
How are the bores? Are the actions tight?

 

[bp45cal]

hay star i would trade for them tc's up there n a bag of crack {a big 1 too} tea hee tea hee
i will post some more pics as some have requested later.thanks for replies some helpfull some funny

 

[DATAM]

I would imagine there is a lot of collector value in them. They are lovely pieces of work. More than I could afford *sigh*

 

[bp45cal]

here are some more detailed pics for those that asked.start with the charles ingram barrel is 29 7/8 inches

this is the patent # 4122 and anson&deeleys and 2 swords crossed with a crown
between the handles

right barrel has a stamp i can't
make out then the swords with
crown between handles the
number 13 then a sword
crossed with what looks like a
fish hook emblems in 3 of the
corners can't make it out left
barrel has same marks plus a
12b and a 13w and the words
not for ball

the pics show it pretty good

says charles ingram 18,b.renfield st.glasgow

thomas johnson top of barrel rib says 2 thomas johnson lake parson swaffham northfolk the barrel is 32 inches

patent 599 with a hammer over it can't tell what is marked above patent# looks like a fancy hat on a mushroom cap then a V with a crown above a number 13 than a P under a crown then the number 1015 same makings on both barrels the rib has a 2 and a cross

this says joseph brazier ashes with a V and crown on each side

the barrels on both guns are not rusted or pitted at all very shiny infact

 

[Mark Dube]

Thanks for the photos, this provides much additional info, I’ll tell you what I can, one at a time.

Let’s start with the Ingram:

This is a fairly plain Birmingham box lock, although it is nicely engraved it was not a “top of the line” (based on no ejectors & inexpensive “Hackett Snap” fore-end attachment. The numeral “1” visible on the top lever, barrel rib & inside fore-end metal tell us that it was gun #1 of a pair of guns, usually identical.

The 12b (indicates the nominal bore) is what we call 12 gauge; the 13m indicates the bore diameter at the muzzle and indicates “choke”. The not for ball mark was used between 1875 & 1887, it’s presence on one barrel indicates that the other had no choke (true cylinder bore). The various crossed scepters are Birmingham proof marks.

This gun is Damascus, and chambered for 2 ½ inch shells only.

The most significant issue with the gun is the stock, it is clearly broken inside the head (how badly we cannot tell) and the brass bolt was a cheap fix by an inexperienced gunsmith. It appears to me that there may be an extra screw in the trigger-guard, and we know the barrels have been shortened (possibly only 1/8” but I can’t tell from here). It is also obvious that there is no finish remaining on any exterior surface of the gun.

If the ribs remain securely attached, and the bores and barrel walls are determined to be sufficient (special measuring tools required), I might go $600 on it knowing that it needs $$$$ in stock repair and refinish.

 

[Mark Dube]

The Johnson:

This is a fairly plain London proved hammer gun, built on a “Jones under-lever” (my favorite action) this was the first successful means of engaging 2 bites on the barrel lug. Can you tell us if the hammers are “rebounding” (retract slightly from the striker when relaxed) or “non-rebounding” (rest on strikers after dropped)?

The Jones action was in vogue from 1859 until the early 1880’s (was used after that but not commonly).

The wedge fore-end fastener also helps date the gun, it’s use ended around 1880.

This gun is Damascus, and chambered for 2 ½ inch shells only.

Again, the most significant issue with the gun is the stock, it is clearly broken badly through the wrist, and the metal plates were added as a simple means of keeping the gun shooting. It appears to me that there may be an extra screw in the trigger-guard, and we know the barrels have been shortened (possibly only 1/8” but I can’t tell from here). It is also obvious that there is no finish remaining on any exterior surface of the gun.

If the ribs remain securely attached, and the bores and barrel walls are determined to be sufficient (special measuring tools required), I might go $300 on it knowing that it needs $$$$ in stock repair and refinish.

 

[ben hunchak]

Sorry, I did not see the stock damage on the Ingram(small pics) and there is no mention in the text, my est. drops by 50%, if both were in better condition(stocks), I would prefer the Johnson myself.

 

[setter]

How did I miss the broken stocks?
Anyway I have a United arms Belgian 12g that is a shooter with 2 sets of barrels 30" and different chokes, similar to yours above and while it is my rainy day grouse gun. I do not think it is in the same class of your other two guns. Just easier to buy ammo and use.

 

[deckerhead]

Im thinking LARGE !!

 

[PerversPépère]

High-end damascus barrels were very expensive, and very strong. Those were usually nitro proofed.
Beautiful firearms have been made around these barrels which can still be used and shot safely today. Unfortunately, they are as expensive today as they were in their time...
PP.

 

[Sharptail]

Bp45cal, the Ingram is a very interesting gun. I might be wrong, but I think it is built on a Westley Richards action. The top lever is very distinctive and used almost exclusively by Westley Richards. Other clues include the safety and the treatment of the trigger plate, and the bottom of the action in general. In addition, the Anson & Deeley patent stamp is a little too pretty and prominent. Westley Richards owned the patent, which expired in 1889. Those gunmakers who bought rights to build A&D actions prior to that date were required to display the patent number, but they didn't have to make it pretty. Westley Richards did indeed provide barreled actions to the trade, this could be one of them. If so, the gun could be worth re-stocking.

Take a look at the gun featured on this page, and see if you agree.

http://www.brileygunvault.com/westleyrichards12boreboxlockejector.aspx

One other tidbit - On the Johnson, the Joseph Brazier stamp indicates the lockmaker, a famous name dating back to 1702. From 1834 to 1887, their address was "The Ashes" on Great Brick Kiln Street, Wolverhampton.


Sharptail

 

[North of 58]

Interesting guns your friend has. On the Johnson I'm fairly sure the stonemason's hammer stamped on the barrels with the 599 above is the trade mark of Henry Parsons, the patentee of chopperlump barrels. The 599 is the use number. I think I can see the line on the bottom of the lug where they are joined. Chopperlump barrels were considered by most to be the best way to make barrels and is a mark of quality. There weren't alot of early damascus chopperlump made. I've got a W.S. Riley, Jones underlever hammergun with the same mark and a use number of 419.