How much difference does your Divsion make????

O

Onthebeep

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So here's the basic question, how much difference does the equipment allowed in each division (Open, Prod, Std) make to how fast and accurately you can shoot??

If you took 3 guns, open, std and production, each capable of the same mechanical accuracy and ran the same stage would your times on each run be significantly different??

I was thinking about this and pulled the results from the last match I shot (RA L1). There were 5 open class competitors and so for fun I put all the shooters into one group in Excel and ran the results. Do all the open class shooters come out on top?

No names here just divisions.

1st Open
2nd Open
3rd Prod
4th Std

So three open class people got beat by iron sights. Now if the best shooters get to the top in each class and there were 5 open class competitors if you looked at the top 15 results what is the spread? Rankings were....

Open, Open, Prod, Std, Open, Prod, Open, Open, Std, Std, Prod, Prod, Prod, Std, Std.

So there were 5 open, 5 Std and 5 production shooters. So as the sample included all the open class competitors all you can say is that there does not appear to be a major difference between Std and Production from a overall score perspective.

All the open class people were in the top 8 but is that because they tend to be better shooters or because of the equipment they get to use in Open?? The bottom placed Open competitor ranked a match percentage of 64% with the 15th placed competitor rating a match percentage of 49% so the bottom end of open class is closer to the bottom end of the sample than the top. It's not like the match percentages fell off a cliff under the open class competitors.

I remember an article that did a similar exersise with David Svengiy (OK I can't spell his name) and it concluded that he was beating Open class competitors even with the minor scoring disadvantage.

So how much of an advantage is the equipment in each division giving the competitors??????
 
Since we don't compete against each other, it doesn't really matter, what counts is how well you do in your class.
That being said, the best gun in the world won't help you if you suck!
Try the same exercise with the Provincial or Nationals scores and see what happens.
Really it depends on how many good shooters in each division attend, and what the match is like. I could probably take a box stock .45 to somewhere like Haliburton, where the targets are all arms length at best, and likely win. I have won there after removing my sights from the gun. If you move the targets back an average of 10m it changes quite a bit, move them back another 5m and its a whole different game.
A few years back I was at the Area 1 championship shooting on Rob Leathams squad. He was shooting a singlestack 6" 1911 .45. When they played with his scores, he would have not only won Limited 10, but Limited as well and, if I remember correctly, been 6th or so in Open.....but since he didn't shoot a Limited or Open gun, it doesn't really matter. On that day if he had actually shot an Open gun, he likely would have been 1st or 2nd. So the Limited 10 gun was a handicap then?
An M Standard shooter will in all odds beat a D Open everytime, in fact an M Revolver shooter will likely beat a D Open shooter everytime. Money or gear does not equal skill, training and practice.
 
I guess I'm asking if you took a group of 5 M class shooters in Std, Open and Production and out them in one group does the division they are shooting in make a difference to the final result?

I'll look to see if I can get the data on the provincials to play with.
 
The only way to do it properly would be to take the same 5 M's and have them each shoot Open, Standard, and Production against each other.
I'm up for it :D
 
Or put on a match that is "run what you brung"
No classes, no divisions, no categories.
Straight up shooting.
 
One of the things that levels the playing field is the tendency I see for match directors to put targets at distances of 5 yards. Put partials out at 15 and the gear makes a bigger difference. Add more plates at 12 yards, and you'll see a big difference.

Having said that, many open shooters will still have problems with the 12 yard plate, but the top shooters in standard and production will not have the same problems.
 
Thats one of the reasons I like the odd 40 - 50m stage thrown in. It is amusing how many "M" shooters can't hit anything past 20m
 
To simplify, if shooting in Canada with 10 rnd limit

If most of the targets are close ( 5 - 10 M) there will be very little to separate the equipment groups.
(assuming the same level of shooter was in each group)

If even a few of the targets are farther away ( 10 - 20) or are partial targets then Open will come ahead more hits faster, then Standard ( if major) , then Production ( minor = less points)

If outside Canada then Open with 28-30 rounds before reloading walks away with the deal.
 
I do find it amusing that from the time the divisions were created, because some didn't want to compete against Open guns, the other divisions have been trying to find out how they compare against Open guns!
 
Ipsik said:
To simplify, if shooting in Canada with 10 rnd limit

If most of the targets are close ( 5 - 10 M) there will be very little to separate the equipment groups.
(assuming the same level of shooter was in each group)

If even a few of the targets are farther away ( 10 - 20) or are partial targets then Open will come ahead more hits faster, then Standard ( if major) , then Production ( minor = less points)

If outside Canada then Open with 28-30 rounds before reloading walks away with the deal.
Click to expand...

Mike Nailed it - plus toss in movers, bobbers, drop turners & swingers and they help show the difference too.
 
maybe it's just me...but at the hoser matches (10 meters and under) I feel slightly disadantaged with the dot. To me it just gets in the way...iron sites feel quicker at closer distances...
 
Quigley said:
maybe it's just me...but at the hoser matches (10 meters and under) I feel slightly disadantaged with the dot. To me it just gets in the way...iron sites feel quicker at closer distances...
Click to expand...

That's very true. It's hard to point-shoot a gun that has a scope blocking the view of the top of the slide. With a Standard gun up close, you can get away with a very unrefined sight focus and just hose the targets. Many times you can just track the axis of the gun as you super-impose it on the target surface and fire. But as soon as the targets get either farther away or more difficult (partial movers for instance), which forces the shooter to rack-focus between targets and front sight, the dot comes into its range of advantage.

Of course once your eyes get over 40 years on them, Open starts to look better as well. Doesn't matter how advanced you are as a shooter; if you can't see your sights you can't compete.
 
Quigley said:
maybe it's just me...but at the hoser matches (10 meters and under) I feel slightly disadantaged with the dot. To me it just gets in the way...iron sites feel quicker at closer distances...
Click to expand...

Maybe you could start a trend for secondary sights mounted off axis like the rife guys in 3 gun?

Oh no, on second thoughts we don't want anyone shooting 'gansta' style :eek:
 
Ipsik said:
To simplify, if shooting in Canada with 10 rnd limit

If most of the targets are close ( 5 - 10 M) there will be very little to separate the equipment groups.
(assuming the same level of shooter was in each group)

If even a few of the targets are farther away ( 10 - 20) or are partial targets then Open will come ahead more hits faster, then Standard ( if major) , then Production ( minor = less points)

If outside Canada then Open with 28-30 rounds before reloading walks away with the deal.
Click to expand...

Very nice synopsis - with no dissenters you seem to have nailled the answer there - thanks. :)
 
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